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**Six Thousand Year Old Man** · August 31, 2004, 23:35

Some quick answers:

WLTwhateverD - for celebrations, you need to have at least half your city population happy, and none unhappy or very unhappy.

Incidentally, beakers don't represent happiness, goblets do. I'm not sure if you meant goblets in your post, but just in case... try turning up that luxury rate and producing some goblets.

If you can't get celebrations going, you might try:

building happiness-related wonders (Hanging Gardens), or building improvements that reduce unhappiness (temples, colosseums).

Trading more. Each trade route adds to your city's total trade arrows - with enough extra arrows, the same luxury rate will produce more happy people in that city than it would without the trade routes in place.

As for science... well, you might want to head for better governments than Monarchy, for one. The corruption there is terrible. Better to switch to Communism (if you don't have enough happiness improvements and wonders to make Republic or Democracy work). Fundamentalism requires no happiness improvements to keep order, but it reduces your cities' science output by half. And celebrations in Communism, Monarchy and Fundamentalism will allow your celebrating cities to generate trade arrows as a Republic would - so try to make your key cities celebrate if you can.

The real way to get science is by trade, though. Build lots of Caravans, and deliver them in cities (preferably foreign ones on islands) that demand their goods. When you build a Caravan, you'll usually get up to 3 commodities + food supplies to choose from. Pick a commodity that is demanded in foreign cities, and deliver it to them. You can see what commodities are demanded by a foreign city by clicking on it.

Each Caravan, when delivered, will generate a one-time bonus in gold (shown on delivery) and an equal bonus of beakers (plus ongoing trade in the source and destination city). Deliver lots of Caravans, and you can attain up to one new science per turn via Caravans alone.

Sorry if this is already known to you... but the key to winning easily in Civ2 is trade, trade and more trade.

**Bloody Monk** · August 31, 2004, 23:36

Welcome to the world of Apolyton!!

I will offer a few thoughts that may be of help. There are three prerequisites for WeLove condition if you want population growth.
--Republic or Democracy Gov't
--Food Surplus each turn in @ city
--A majority of Happy Citizens, at least 50-50, in @ city

You can get more Happy Citizens thru Wonders, MarketPlace, Courthouse, but, especially by increasing the Luxury slider.

Being in Monarchy in 800ad is part of the problem. To get ready for Republic, Democracy (where martial law no longer applies) you need to add Temples, Marketplaces, and Mike's Chappel, and occassionally, Courthouses and Harbors (for food). This will keep your happiness problem under control and allow for WeLove w/o an excess of Luxuries.

As for SSC, build Colossus, Copernicus, Newton, Library, University. The SSC should be sited for multiple trade specials, and other tiles changed to grass or plains with roads (for arrows). Maximize arrows and allocate them to Science.

One of the keys to achieving these things is quickly getting Monarchy and then Trade (for camels).

Hope this helps.

Monk

**Sparrowhawk** · August 31, 2004, 23:44

This forum seems so quiet lately and two of you post a detailed reply within a minute of each other??

I could not hope to answer any better then STYOM or BM already have, but I would say you have taken a great step by coming here and posting your question on Apolyton Edgeblade, hopefully you try the methods suggested above and come back and let us know how it worked out and any more problems you might have.

I don't think you will find a more helpful site then Apolyton when it comes to Civ issues

**rjmatsleepers** · September 1, 2004, 01:21

One minor addition to the wise words from STYOM and Monk: the happy, unhappy and very unhappy citizens that STYOM mentions are shown in different colours at the top of the city report screen. You need half the faces to be blue and none red or black. They also appear on the attitude advisors screen (F4).

As Monk says, you can increase the number of blue faces by moving the luxury slider to give more luxuries, although you will often not get a celebration even at 100% luxury.

Within each city, you may be able to increase the blue faces (or decrease the red faces) by re-allocating your workers to tiles with more arrows - trade specials such as wine or silk, roaded rivers, or water tiles. Changing one worker to an entertainer can help if you have a big enough food surplus. Without the food surplus, you can still celebrate but won't grow.

In my experience, you are unlikely to celebrate unless you have both a temple and a marketplace. If those are all you have, you will probably need a hapiness wonder to maintain celebration - Shakespear's theatre in your SSC for example. In many cases you will also need the extra arrows from trade routes.

And don't forget STYOM's final advice - trade, Trade, TRADE.

RJM at Sleeper's

**Scouse Gits** · September 1, 2004, 04:27

... but all my people have blue faces ??!!!

a further clarification - the people seen in F4 or at the top of a city screen come in four colours

light blue - happy
blue - content
red - unhappy
black - bloody furious!

in order to celebrate a city must have at least half of its citizens happy and none unhappy or worse - in order to grow under a representative government the city must also have a food surplus.

Enjoy & welcome, Stu

**Scouse Gits** · September 1, 2004, 05:19

If you find the representative governments too tricky at this stage of your Civ life, try this ...

Aim your later research towards Democracy and build the Statue of Liberty - a mere 12 camels if my memory serves. You now have access to all forms of government so choose either

Communism - very similar to Monarchy, but with very low corruption and each martial law unit counts double - your research is not impaired and if you celebrate you get Rep gov arrows -- this is a great vehicle for either conquest or spaceship victories

or my favourite

Fundamentalism - research is capped at 50% (you can set the slider higher, but it has no effect) and then halved - so this truly sucks for science development - but there is no unhappiness - in fact happy improvements pay tithes into your treasury and each city can support eight military units without support costs - an ideal setup for conquest.

These routes wont get you into the Hall of Fame - but they lead to really enjoyable (and victorious) games, which is the primary object of the exercise.

My advice to you is follow the tech path below:
Monarchy, Trade, Monotheism, Democracy

With must have Wonders:
Hanging Gardens, Michaelangelos Chapel & Lady Liberty

staying in Monarchy until you can use the Lady to jump into Commie or Fundy - victory will be assured

Once you are used to winning - we can talk about some of the bells and whistles

Stu

**Bloody Monk** · September 1, 2004, 09:04

Stu is right to emphasize the value of celebrating in non-representative gov'ts. Those extra arrows really make a big impact; but, of course, you can only grow the population by being in a representative gov't.

And, BTW, I think Fundy Gov't allows ten units before support costs begin. And one more thing, once you get the celebrating started, you may be able to reduce the level of Luxuries after the first turn, and still maintain a celebrating condition. This is the effect of the doubled arrows.

So, the word of the day is celebration. In Civ, it is more than a party.

Monk

**Edgeblade** · September 1, 2004, 10:40

yo, thx for the posts and the help guys, but without sounding arrogant, i knew most of what you wrote beforehand

to 6000yr old man, i did mean goblets yes :P

how many goblets does it take to turn one content person into a happy person??

as for the people and the governments, i know about those yes, but i find that it takes too long to get to communism, in deity games i have played, i dont think i have ever gotten to communism before (i skipped it and went for fundamentalism because i was getting killed by an opponent equal to me because they were in a superior government)

As i said, i have just started, but with every new game i get better, my start gets quicker, and in all the games i have played to date, getting a good quick start is the key to success if yo u know how to use it, and at the start i am pretty good. i expand quickly and get ahead in techs (despite the fact i still find it difficult to get ALL the wonders for a good SSC). To go from monarchy to democracy means i would have to skip stages like maths, astronomy (to get copernicus), and i find that before i even research that tech the other civs have already taken the wonder.

The main reason *i think* i am falling behind is because at the start, i get my capital, the scc and another city which makes settlers for my new towns. And i continue to make towns (and neglect making roads and irrigation) until i quite a few cities. I then send half my settlers to start making improvements to my city squares, and neglect expanding as much, which means i fall behind. This is where i am struggling, to find a good balance between making new cities and roading and irrigating between cities. Finally when i have trade and road, i start to trade but 90% of the time the cities connected by road are close to each other, and i will be honest...im not the best explorer there is. Regularly i go for a hut and my guy gets killed. I always play on large map with 7 civs, but my guy gets killed by barbarians or enemies who dont want to ally (ie they demand **** from me and i aint gonna pay), and i find it hard to fund a move for a new unit because i am concentrating on improving my cities, building settlers etc. In one game i play online with a few friends, we played with 7 civs on deity, and i got to the stage where i had 13 cities and even the ai only had 6-7 cities, yet there was a "Passage", one square long which seperated me and the enemy civ (there was only us on our island), and because of that i didnt get them scouted. And since i generally dont get map making early in my tech tree (i usually concentrate on techs to get me into monarchy and then to get wonders like copernicus etc), trade and then a few unit upgrades, and by the time i am through to that, its usually to late to continue to expand

The biggest problem with this game i have found (starting so late) is that not many people play it anymore heh. In other games i have played (like SWGB:CC) you can record games and watch them over, or have people viewing the game (either as viewers, or as another player who surrenders so they can watch the remaining battle etc), so despite reading on here about SSC's and trading with other foreign cities (i find the enemy kills my caravan for no reason...), i still find it hard to reach any kind of science level you are tlaking about whilst still gaining the gold to be able to rush buy things or cover my costs.

i know it will come in time, but i want to get it sorted sooner rather than later, any advice and help will be much appreciated (but dont explain things to me like im a complete newb because ive read the site, manual and other places so i know what stuff is etc...just not how to put it into practice)

**Bloody Monk** · September 1, 2004, 10:56

Sorry then I am for bothering. I thought from your question that you wanted advice as to how to do things differently so that your game might improve. If you insist on doing things the same way, you should not be surprised at the result. I would not say you are being arrogant but I do wonder if you were listening.

There is an old saying, "one who is lost should ask directions of those who know the way." If you don't care about following those directions, it is on you. After eight years and thousands of games, perhaps you can discover a better way; and when you do, please let us know.

Monk

**debeest** · September 1, 2004, 13:31

Edgeblade, it normally takes two luxuries (goblets) to move a citizen from unhappy to content, or from content to happy.

There are two very important things that I don't think anyone has noted for you yet, which could make all the difference for you.

1) Any luxuries beyond two per citizen in a city have no effect whatsoever. This is vitally important because it means that, at deity, a city with an odd number of citizens sometimes cannot celebrate based on luxuries alone. (Size five, only ten goblets count, it takes four to make two unhappy citizens happy, the last two make a citizen content, but you're still short a happy one -- see?) In that case, you cannot celebrate without HG or Cure or a courthouse or something else to create happiness rather than just contentment.

2) The "something else" can be outraged citizens (blackfaces). A quirk of the game is that it takes only two luxuries to convert an outraged citizen into a happy one. This is confusing, since it takes two martial law units to content an outraged citizen. But the advantage, to you, is that building MORE CITIES creates more outraged citizens and gets you past that problem created by the two-luxuries-per-citizen limit. Check your cities; if you don't have initially outraged citizens in most cities, that may explain why you're not getting celebration and city growth.

It's also worth noting that when you are studying your 20th civ advance (not counting beginning freebies), your science cost skyrockets. That's normal and has a lot to do with why your game slows down when it does. You should be sure to look at the Great Library on the Strategy forum and read "The Cost of Science Explained" to learn about key civs and tech gifting. Can be very important.

Hang in there; it sounds to me like you're learning quite rapidly.

**Daddy-O** · September 1, 2004, 14:20

I have found many of the same problems in Civ2 that Edgeblade is speaking of. Maybe because I try to combine too many tricks into one game. Maybe I forget how challenging this game is for everyone but when I read the posts that you guys make I feel like I should be able to start an OCC by looking at the specials patterns, finding the perfect location for a city by turn 3, discoving monarchy by turn 6, soon I'm trading with the world and build the five required wonders for a SSC by turn 20. My city is WLTKDing left and right. Make a quick run for Dem, 3 new techs per turn by manipulating my workers to get 85 beakers and using Oedo's 012 tech lists, launch my spaceship, the switch to Comm to keep happiness in check whilst I show the world my iron fist for fun, switch to ICS mode and then land on AC by 1000AD.

Anyway, I am grateful for the advice. I'm going to take this advice and stomp on all of you in the current tourney!

If this doen't work then maybe I need evaluate my life, focus on the important things - like practicing Civ 2.

**debeest** · September 1, 2004, 14:56

Well, yeah, skrobism, it really is just that easy.

... for some of our Poly posters, who are probably among the few best of the millions of Civ players in the world.

Not me! You know ... them.

**Elephant** · September 1, 2004, 15:59

Edgeblade - are you playing primarily Single Player, or Multiple Players? Some strategies mentioned go out the window when playing against other humans. Multiplayer is more of a conquest game, and getting your caravans killed or blocked is a likelyhood rather than an oddity.

Secondly, I gather you are using the MultiPlayer version of Civ, rather than the 2.42 version. AI players will be very hostile most of the time, and tech and map trades much more difficult. Of course, human opponents will be even more so! You may need to adjust some suggestions made here to the kind of game you are playing. Diplomacy with AI players is non-intuitive - imagine them as Kim Jong Il of North Korea, with a bulge in his back pocket that might be glowing. Either prepare to crush them as quickly and ruthlessly as possible, or swallow pride and appease them in order to get the tech or maps you need to leave them in the dust. These kinds of things are hard to describe in "suggestion" format, but best learned by personal experience.

Preparing correctly for the switch from Monarchy to Republic is one of the trickier parts of a good game. You need to do it earlier, and you need to do it across your entire empire rather than just the SSC or a few "core" cities. Many players have learned the trick of getting Marco Polo early so that you can monitor the progress of the other civs. If you have it, check it every turn and notice if someone is researching a key tech (like Astronomy) toward a critical wonder. Note also their Power Ratings as that tells you who their KeyCivs are.

**Old n Slow** · September 1, 2004, 17:26

Looks like a hidden question in this thread is "shifting gears." Early on, the common builds are a few searchers and many settlers for new cities. After a few cities (say 3 or 4), one starts a wonder. After a few cities, a settler or two (later more, say one per 2 cities after eight cities) starts roading and later irrigating for the SSC.

Once trade is discovered, most of my builds are camels -- maybe 4 out of 5 cities on average are on this track. Most of the pressure for me is nabbing some of my favorite wonders (Col, HG, Marcos; then Copes, Mikes, Shakes, Leo's, ME, and maybe KRC), so my building of new cities also slows down (a flaw in my game).

I ususally switch from Monarchy to Republic soon after Trade, maybe after Construction -- object is to pump out three good trades from the SSC to an offshore AI civ (jumping from the boat into their port decreases the risk of dead camels on arrival). Plan is to WL the SSC (at least) & grow to size 12; in republic, lux is somewhere between 4 & 5 for the first turn, then drops to 3 & will probably stay there for a half dozen turns, then maybe down to 2 for the duration of the representative government.

Infrastructure -- SSC gets the lot, of course. Remaining cities -- ususally get a temple circa size 5 or so, then I'll add a market & harbor. Aqueduct comes after Mike's Chapel. Nothing else (we're back to camels) until JSB -- then it is a bank & sewer -- until probably close to end game. I'll ususally have a running civ with about 12-20 cities -- forgetting to make the effort to continually expand -- so I'll miss out getting the second tech per turn until...

Tactics. Once I hit this, I'll switch to Fundy with Sun Tsu & go "visit the neighbors"

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