A Little help about WTLPD

[Edgeblade]

most of my games are played vs the AI, and yes, i have the patched multiplayer gold version of civ2, and all the examples i have given are based on playing only against the ai.

does WTLPD increase the size of a city above 12, because if it is supposed to, then something isnt working for me:

i refer you to an earlier game i loaded (where i wasnt doing particularly well). In it i have a city of size 13. 6 of the people are happy (light blue), 6 are contented, and one is an entertainer (to get the goblets up)

according to one of you, it only takes 2 goblets per person to make them happy, so seeing as i have 28 goblets, including a marketplace, why is it not WLTPD ??

however when i boost the goblets up to 38...it starts to celebrate

[Bloody Monk]

With 13 citizens, 7 must be Happy and 6 content. 6-6-1 (1=Elvis) will not be enough.

Attach a .sav of that game for greater detail. For example, if Luxuries are greater than zero, reset to zero to see the true picture of those 13. Is there now a 'very unhappy'?? The odd number effect may mean you need a Happy Wonder (HG or Cure) or a Courthouse. Are there any trade routes?? Seeing the save will make it more likely that any suggestions are on point.

Monk

[debeest]

Edgeblade, the situation you just described is exactly what I explained in my earlier post, part 1). Your city is size 13. Only two goblets per citizen have any affect, so you effectively have 26 goblets, not 28. Thus, 6 citizens go from unhappy all the way to happy, using 24 goblets, and one citizen goes only to content, using the last 2. Unless you have something else to make another citizen happy, all those extra goblets have no effect. It would still be good to post the .sav, because I can't think of any reason why upping to 38 goblets would make any difference.

Also, take a look at the "happy" screen of a bunch of different cities from different games in order to learn the order in which the game applies luxuries, martial law, improvements, and wonders to produce contentment or happiness. The order matters a lot. For example, if you start with a blackface but you make an entertainer, then the blackface is the one that disappears, so you lose the two-goblets-full-conversion advantage.

[Scouse Gits]

... and yes WLTxD will celebrate upto whatever size the food will support (as you can never have more than 16 specialists any size greater than 36 is purely cosmetic for score purposes)

Stu

[Old n Slow]

Don't forget the sewer.

I've had WL growth end at various points (the odd numbers usually)

Another jump start --- I think that delivering a food caravan into the city causes a (one turn?) celebration (not too mention a half food box and an ongoing food route (bah!)). Maybe that "one turn" celebration can be parlayed farther.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

(Not to hijack this thread, but I saw a few points where I do things quite differently from OnS, and I wanted to know how others approach the same issues.)

Originally posted by Old n Slow
Looks like a hidden question in this thread is "shifting gears." Early on, the common builds are a few searchers and many settlers for new cities. After a few cities (say 3 or 4), one starts a wonder. After a few cities, a settler or two (later more, say one per 2 cities after eight cities) starts roading and later irrigating for the SSC.

One Settler per 2 cities? - I try to have 1 per city, if I can. Constant expansion is my goal, and I like to have 2-3 settlers around my SSC to improve the land, and others building roads.

Once trade is discovered, most of my builds are camels -- maybe 4 out of 5 cities on average are on this track. Most of the pressure for me is nabbing some of my favorite wonders (Col, HG, Marcos; then Copes, Mikes, Shakes, Leo's, ME, and maybe KRC), so my building of new cities also slows down (a flaw in my game).

Maybe the flaw in my game is that I'm not building enough camels, since I build a Settler after my first defender in virtually all new cities. I suppose that my rationale for this is that in the long run, more cities will produce more camels than less cities will. But in the short run, I'm usually lucky to get more than 2 of the ancient wonders - and I don't often get to choose which one, after HG.

I ususally switch from Monarchy to Republic soon after Trade, maybe after Construction -- object is to pump out three good trades from the SSC to an offshore AI civ (jumping from the boat into their port decreases the risk of dead camels on arrival). Plan is to WL the SSC (at least) & grow to size 12;

I can never bring myself to do the early Republic thing. My justifications are twofold - unrest (I build a lot of cities, so I usually wait to have Mike's before I try Republic), and loss of production (due to unit support). Are these 2 issues just a bullet I'm going to have to bite, in order to boost the SSC early?

in republic, lux is somewhere between 4 & 5 for the first turn, then drops to 3 & will probably stay there for a half dozen turns, then maybe down to 2 for the duration of the representative government.

Even with lux at 4-5, are cities being kept content? I always seem to have too many scouts wandering around for this to work...

Thoughts?

[rah]

The trick is to assume you're going to republic before you do it. This way you can make sure that your wanderers are all attached to different cities. Assume that city on the ocean is going to be building a ship so if you need an escort for a settler, it comes from another city and is there when the ship is built. Switch a few units between cities so you have options if barbs show up and you need multiple troops outside of the city.

And to truely learn how to celebrate, PLAY MP. You don't get every happy wonder and must learn to celebrate without them.
The even odd is very important, and by creating settlers in cities that have maxed to join to odd numbered cities, you can continue celebrating for quite a while.
If in MP, build pyramids to help cities get back to an even number quickly. (in SP, the AI covets it, but in MP games, there are bigger fish to fry)
If you get a happy wonder, great. But not critical. And after learning how to do it with few or no happy wonders, once you're playing the AI again and can get all of them, you'll laugh at how easy it is.
Trade routes are a big help once you get too many cities. If on the optimal path and demanded, or from a different cont. your bonuses can be large enough to buy that infrastructure quickly, or be self sustaining.

[-Jrabbit]

Edgeblade -- I'll weigh in with some random observations based on what I perceive as the real problem -- winning at deity. Congrats, BTW, on making the decision to escape the boredome of King level. It shows you've got the right attitude.

I (like all of us) have been through what you're experiencing. Rest assured, we need only ID a few game behaviors to get you out of your rut and kicking the AI's butt.

There has been plenty already noted here about getting WLTxD going and sustaining it. In the early stages of the game, all you need is the Hanging Gardens and temples in all cities. Then, just upgrade as necessary.

1. It seems to me that you are likely spending too many resources on white goods (ie, city improvements) and too much settler time irrigating and roading. an important key to success is growth, especially in the early game. When the advisors are all clamoring for you to build city walls and massive troops, IGNORE THEM. remember, the AI is incapable of coordinated attacks. You need only enough military strength to keep the city alive. Irrigation should never be needed early unless you're going to Republic, where lack of food surplus often prevents growth.

Early in the game, all settler activity should be toward new cities -- as many and as soon as possible. Plant them as close as possible to the home city, to minimize losses through corruption, but make sure they're on reasonably fertile ground. Look for river basins to build on -- free roads early!

Find trade specials (whales are best, but also gold, wine, and silk) and get them into play NOW. It's how you maximize science without waste. Your SSC needs a high-arrow location, but you'll get a lot more early arrows if you put your city right on the trade special. All trade specials are on good defensive ground, which means they can be defended with fewer troops.

another random thought -- I was struck by your inability to get everything needed for the SSC. You are aware, of course, that you can build and save camels and use them toward WOW building, right? Generally (IF I find a good site for it early), I just keep building camels as fast as I can. (This is what roads are really for in the early game.) Ideally, you should be collecting WoWs the very next turn after discovering the associated tech.

the two trip-ups in getting a Pure SSC are generally --
A. Missing Colossus cuz you wanted hanging Gardens. No biggie. It expires anyway. Your SSC will be later, but ultimately cheaper and just as powerful.
B. It's usually Astronomy/Cope's that the AI will steal from you, especially if you build Colo early. If you remember to get Astro early, you should get all the SSC WoWs. Your only side-trip should be a happy WoW.

Exploration -- You must learn to do this!! Usually, my first couple worthless warriors and maybe an early NONE unit are sent out in search of huts and specials. They are expected to die and not lamented much when it happens. Find and explore the "bands" of specials. This provides the blueprint for where I drop my cities. Don't be discouraged by barbs from huts -- stuff happens.

City Management -- This can provide quick improvement to your game if you're not already into it. The idea is to check each city between every turn and make sure it's maximized for your needs. You can squeeze extra trade arrows, shields, etc. to reach goals, often cutting several turns out of the equation by clever worker placement.

Incremental Rushbuild -- I assume you know how to do this. The explanation is lengthy, so I'll let you look it up if not already aware.

A quick word on The Republic and I'm out of here. Republic is great for growth, but hard to manage because of the food/shield penalty for supported troops, and the happiness penalty for troops not inside a city or fortress. The key is to create a small, effective defense force and keep it intact while growing in Rep. during this time, your build queues should all feature non-troop items ONLY. I use the time for camel development, often leavened with a few diplomats to help bribe any barbs and perhaps aqueducts in cities that can sustain growth.

Then, once the bulk of the growth is complete, get back to Monarchy and trade, trade, trade until you can get to Democracy. Make sure you know about two-continent trading and ship-chaining, and be aware of the bonus payment for WLTxD deliveries.

And if you're not using the oceans, you're missing a lot. Short camel deliveries within your kingdom are nice for starters, but it's those constant, across-the-sea connections that really pay off. Rule the waves, rule the world. (Some like early Lighthouse, but I prefer the rush to non-expiring Magellan's.)

Good luck, Edgeblade. Keep us informed. Keep asking questions here -- it helped me a ton!

[Bloody Monk]

About those trade specials, especially in the SSC...don't forget to road/RR them to increase the arrows from them.

Monk

[debeest]

JR, what's the WLTxD trade bonus payment? Do you just mean the representative-government trade levels under a celebrating monarchy?

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
About those trade specials, especially in the SSC...don't forget to road/RR them to increase the arrows from them.

Monk

Are you sure about this BM? I thought roads only increased trade for grassland and plains and these terrrains don't have any trade specials. (Mind you I'm relying on the manual which is often wrong!)

RJM at Sleeper's

[debeest]

Roads will increase the trade by one arrow in any tile that has trade, including silk etc. Railroads, on the other hand, have no effect on trade.

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers


Are you sure about this BM? I thought roads only increased trade for grassland and plains and these terrrains don't have any trade specials. (Mind you I'm relying on the manual which is often wrong!)

RJM at Sleeper's

Yup, very sure. Though the RR part was a throw-in for the shield effect.

Monk

edit: I'm very slow 2night. There was a game a while back where this lesson was taught to me by (2) if I remember rightly. The SSC was on a hill or forest, centered within 2gold, 2silk...I think. The comment was along the line of, "You should have roaded over those specials long ago.
2nd edit: What atrocious spelling!! Bad Monk!!

[Bloody Monk]

Well, I have spent too much time looking for that thread. Easier is to suggest a test. Here is a game I found in my search. The SSC is Karakorum. Note the total arrows. Open cheat mode and remove the road/RR on the Silk tile and check again, one at a time, noting the effect on arrows and shields.

Monk

[Edgeblade]

firstly, thx for y'all that have responded, specially to jrabbit


i do know about trading (i generally find that in my quest for researching techs for a good SSC and government, i neglect to get seafaring, navigation etc, in every game on deity so far ive always had iron clads bombarding my cities (most are built on or next to the sea due to me being on an island), and its always a few techs before i can defend myself). I do trade inbetween cities and i do know about the 50 shields to help a WoW...i use it all the time, but is it my observation or do only the top 3 trade routes count? (it only ever shows 3 for me).

You are right in saying that i probably get too many city improvements (im forever building libraries, universities, templs, colleseums, banks marketplaces etc), and not enough caravans for trade/wows etc, and tbh i rarely trade with the AI because they allw ant to kill me and they generally kill my caravans...although in my current game (which i will post) i will try it

Another thing that annoys me is that my capital city is ALWAYS on the corner of an island, and i have to expand away from it in general...its not good, and im always wary of building myself another palace...is this something that you always do to help appease corruption or is it better to leave it in the capital?


I dont know what it is but i always seem to want to irrigate/road every square of my cities production bit thingys, because i thought this could only be a good thing...increased food on squares means you can build up the size of your city quicker, and the extra trade helps for science etc, but this is the part where i stop expanding so quickly...when i start to irrigate and prepare for republic.

On the graph of the game i will post (the one i started before posting on here) i was ahead, and my score/power graph was rising at a steady rate, but suddenly the AI civs just rapidly increase in power and size while i continue to grow at the same steady rate...i think the two coincide (this and when i start irrigating etc). I find it hard to bring myself to build a lot of settlers and caravels toe xpand whilst irrgating and roading because i find myself with more costs to support them

i cant understand why you would switch back to monarchy to trade...do you get more each time or something? because caravans do not require shields to keep them in republic if i remember correctly

and i also admit that my exploring skills are something that i need to work on...mainly ebcause when i start, i find a good site for my city and by the time i have built a warrior, the city is almost ready to grow...and on deity removing my warrior = unhappy which is bad. So having gotten my warriors, temples and a settler from my capital, i work on pyramids/collossus in the cities and continue from my settlers
by the time i explore, i always end up dieing to barbs or other civs and i fail to remake the unit because im too busy making settlers/temples/WoW's



i enclose the game i am currently playing (i took it further than this but my comp crashed...i got to the stage where new york grew to 27)
In this game i have all 3 of the science WoW's you need for your ssc, and i have shakespeares theatre, but unfortnately there are no trade specials there except for a couple of whales (the best i could find at the start)

For the entire game i have been at war with the french (they keep demanding **** and i wont give in, so they just want war) and philedelphia was built there purely as a fortress to stop them getting into my main city area...most of the game that place has been building phalanx/pikemen/musketeers simply to defend my island.

Boston built marco polos simply because i was beaten to the great wall and thast was the only other wow i could build.

I am, however, unsure of where to go from here. I have researched democracy, but since i am at war with pretty much every other nation (they are really aggressive) i wasnt sure whether to go into democracy or not, and on deity level i havent spent any time in democracy before so, im a little "scared" heh :0
I am finding it hard to expand and build new cities now, everytime i make a new city on an sland i have to rush buy the first 2 units because the AI always lands on it and tries to take the island (see st louis and baltimore), and the enemy iron clads keep killing my caravels. I have a settler up in the north that i am going to move down-left one before creating my city, but apart from that im having trouble finding spots to make new cities. Settlers are so expensive (and i dont have leonardoes...i can never get that against the ai) so my engineers are still only in the production line...i have railroad tech now so i want to biuld them on my homeland.


Any advice for the game (with reasoning obviously) would be greatly appreciated