NEW SCENARIO: All Under Heaven

[Alinestra Covelia]

Wo gibt unseren Freund, die Klasse Winterfritz? We can't let this scenario be consigned to history!

[techumseh]

Absolutely right. This scn deserves some discussion. Wither art thou, Winterfritz?

I'm glad you're back too, Allie!

[winterfritz]

winterfritz withers not

@Techumseh, Alinestra and curtsibling: thanks for your kind words It's nice to know that there are some people out there who still play scenarios without Hitler in them

Originally posted by techumseh
With the arrival of the Hsiung-Nu, the game is turned upside down. 3 civs are wiped out within a few turns, and it's suddenly a struggle for survival against 1 power. So much for the contending states. Is this as it's supposed to be?

Sortof. This scenario was actually fairly (foolishly? ) ambitious in that it was supposed to depict both the Warring States and the Imperial Han eras of Chinese history (around a millenium of development!). The first period was characterised by, er, warring states - the various powers contending for hegemony within China. It ended around 220 BC with Ch'in's conquest of its rivals. The subsequent imperial era, on the other hand, was dominated by the struggles of a unified Chinese empire against the steppe nomads.

Hence I wanted the Hsiung-nu to be a force to contend with. For this reason they are probably somewhat overpowered; but this was the best way I could come up with to shift the focus of the scenario so dramatically. Their strength is also a good reason to unify China before their arrival c. 200 BC, making the otherwise leisurely early development period a bit more of a race against the clock...

I hope that's a decent (if a bit belated ) answer to your question... I'm more than happy to answer any other queries re the scenario, and very interested to hear any more opinions.

[curtsibling]

I assume there is a heavy tech paradigm (50-60?) since there is vast trade in those large cities?

[techumseh]

I'm glad you're still around, even if it took you THREE MONTHS to respond. Now I'm gonna have to go back and try it again so I can remember what I'm talking about.

Historical, non-WWII scenarios often don't get enough discussion, and I thought this one merited some attention. It's a well done scenario on a fascinating and under represented period.

But I wonder if there's enough time in the scenario to develop a unified empire before the Hsuing-Nu come storming across the Gobi desert? My recollection is that I was just getting started attacking my first victim when these guys started wiping out other civs in their way. Then I was in their way.

[curtsibling]

"I was just getting started attacking my first victim when these guys started wiping out other civs in their way. Then I was in their way."

A familiar sounding situation!

[jim panse]

Re: winterfritz withers not

Originally posted by winterfritz
It's nice to know that there are some people out there who still play scenarios without Hitler in them

I consider that unfair I always love to play good scenarios and this one is among the better ones I´ve played

I´ll come up with some feedback within the next few days

@ Curt: Btw, I also enjoyed (I am still enjoying) your Kingdoms of Steel too

[DeathByTheSword]

just a quick Q: did you get the name for the scen from the movie Hero?

and i will let you know what i think of it will let you know soon enough

[winterfritz]

Originally posted by techumseh
But I wonder if there's enough time in the scenario to develop a unified empire before the Hsuing-Nu come storming across the Gobi desert?

Not unless you're really good . I purposefully made this scenario rather tough. It is possible though; I unified China before the H-N arrived in one or two playtests (out of don't-ask-how-many). Although that was on deity, so anyone looking for an easier game can always try a lower difficulty setting.

I had considered decreasing the turn increment to 2 years per turn, which would give a player more time to develop/expand before he has to deal with the pesky nomads. However, this would increase the length of the scenario to around 500 turns, as well as necessitating all sorts of changes to the tech paradigm. As the scenario was already lengthy (around 300 turns), and the tech paradigm, after extensive monkeying, was finally semi-accurately reflecting the historical rate of development, I decided to leave it.

Another solution I was mulling over was splitting the scenario into three scenarios - one depicting the Spring and Autumns period, one for the Warring States and one for the Han era. This would enable considerably more flexibility and accuracy in terms of available civs, turn increments for the various eras etc. But as it would also triple the amount of necessary playtesting/effort, I decided to shelve that idea... Perhaps in a future update

[winterfritz]

@curt: The tech paradigm, IIRC (not being on my civ2 computer at present), is actually easier than in vanilla civ2. This is because there are a lot of techs to research, especially early in the game when your cities are pretty lousy. The value I settled on is as close to the historical rate of development as I could get, whilst leaving some room for variation.

@DeathByTheSword: I have neither seen nor heard of Hero My working title during development was something along the lines of 'Rise of the Middle Kingdom.' But once I found out that some RTS had already stolen that one, I started casting about for alternatives. 'All Under Heaven' was supposedly the traditional name for the Chinese emperor's domain, so that's what I settled on.

[Alinestra Covelia]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
just a quick Q: did you get the name for the scen from the movie Hero?

and i will let you know what i think of it will let you know soon enough

Although I can't speak for Winterfritz on this one, the term "Tian-Xia" does mean literally "Sky Below" and it is a very common classical way of alluding to "the earth". It can mean "the entire unified country" as well as "realm of men" in a more spiritual sense (i.e. not heaven nor hell). Tian-Xia has been in common circulation in the Chinese tongue for centuries, if not millennia.

It is also my cousin's name, for which we tease him.

[Alinestra Covelia]

This scenario makes me want to write a few of my own. I'm currently reading "In Search of a Modern China" by Jonathan Spence, and "Red Star Over China" by fellow Missouri-graduate reporter Edgar Snow. Both contain very vibrant material about the foundation of the Communist leadership as a seemingly unstoppable underground movement. Fertile ground for a Civ scenario, if only I can make the time after work.

[winterfritz]

Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia
Although I can't speak for Winterfritz on this one, the term "Tian-Xia" does mean literally "Sky Below" and it is a very common classical way of alluding to "the earth". It can mean "the entire unified country" as well as "realm of men" in a more spiritual sense (i.e. not heaven nor hell). Tian-Xia has been in common circulation in the Chinese tongue for centuries, if not millennia.

Uh oh, someone who understands Chinese . I hope you weren't too offended at my random mix of old-school and new-style Chinese spelling. None of my sources could agree with each other on that one. It took me forever to even figure out which words were the same words but spelt differently. In darker moments I found myself wondering if the introduction of the new style was an elaborate Chinese Communist plot to confound western scholars and halt technological development as universities frantically re-organized their filing systems.

Although it is nice to know that my title wasn't based on one professor of Chinese history's totally unfounded assertion

[winterfritz]

@Alinestra: Your scenario idea, btw, sounds very cool. I had some similar ideas before I got all china-ed out over this scenario. Something running from the '20s to 1949. The Kuomintang, the Communists and the Japanese in Korea/Manchuria would be the main players. A few of the random warlords could be thrown in for variety. Or even Tibet, for invasion after the Chinese were unified . Something like Harlan's WW2 in China scenario, but with everyone playable and a more Chinese perspective. You should make the time - Chinese history is very under-represented in civ2 scens.

[techumseh]

'fritz, FYI: http://www.tecumseh.150m.com/Warlord...rdscoming.html