Romp -- an Early Conquest Succession Game

[Elephant]

We have HG, right? So the AI will be shooting for RR anyway...

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by -Jrabbit
This is becoming interesting...

It's clear that we've had diplomatic relations with the AI, but there's a definite paucity of detail re any tech trading, gifting, map acquisition, etc. What hath marco Polo wrought?

Oh, and just one note from the rabbit hole --

In my experience, it seems that building KRC sets at least one AI onto a "beeline to Industrialization" strategy. Normally, I wouldn't worry, but (1) that is our Losing Condintion, (2) this is a gigamap, and (3) lacking LH will impede our ability to explore. So I would suggest that KRC is a luxury we may wish to forego. (Similarly, in this game we should probably skip the "RR Gift" strategem, since that will allow IND as next tech.)

As I mentioned in my 450 turnset log, after completing MPE, I grabbed all seven AI techs and got their maps. In getting maps I gave them techs only to Cordial to limit their accumulation. And then I suggested that we not do any more tech trades/gifts so as not to help them any further. We will steal what they research--like Seafaring, which the Chin now have available. I hope you have heard little more on the diplo front because nobody has given them anything.

Your concern about KRC is interesting and that connection is a good catch. I so seldom build it that I never noticed any such linkage. My experience is that the AI make a beeline for Indu anyway though, and demand it over everything else once I discover it. Because I think KRC will help us more, I would risk it. But that's just me. If we can go get the Lighthouse quickly, and knock back the Jap too, it should be okay. But KRC isn't an "A list" WOW for me, either. MC, ST, and STWA are a higher priority, I think. We can try a "Fundy-like" research strategy to slow the AI down. We need Medicine (ST) and Feudalism (STWA), then we can drop the science slider to 10% and use trade for the discoveries.

As for your "RR Gift", I agree and restate the principal, "NO TECH TRADES OR GIFTS". The only possible exception might be Republic to handicap their production and give them happiness problems; but, even Republic has the downside of possibly helping their research. (Only possibly because AI favors food and shields over arrows.)

A tangent applying to Early Landing Games: I don't like gifting Indu in those games because they always go for Commie, which blows my MPE. There does seem to be some directedness (to kill WOW's) in the AI research choices.

on the deep thoughts from the "rabbit hole". You must have a "study" complete with a comfy chair away from the rest of the hutch.

Monk

[Traianvs]

No I give up, someone else play this turn. I don't understand the whole concept of caravans anyway. I just build troops

[debeest]

JR, on my turnset, BM had just ensured that no AI civ had any techs we didn't have. As noted in my log, I did try to swap maps again with a couple of the isolated civs, but they refused. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if none of the AI civs would want to swap techs with us even if we wanted to.

[-Jrabbit]

Sorry, gang, I must've misread the Monk's log. When he said:

675 There are seven techs available from the AI. The decision is taken to get them all sooner (rather than in many stages), before we generate more valuable techs that they will then demand for trades. We will get all their maps as well.

I took that as his intent, not necessarily his action. The lack of info on which AIs were close to us, what was trade for what, etc. misled me. The declaration of Lit as the next tech should have been my clue.

If I was more patient, I would have D/L'd the save and opened at home. But it's easier and more fun to troll from the hi-speed connect @ work!

[-Jrabbit]

Re: Romp -- an Early Conquest Succession Game


BM, you state:

I agree and restate the principal, "NO TECH TRADES OR GIFTS". The only possible exception might be Republic

Yet the first post of this thread states:

Originally posted by Old n Slow
Just a couple of special rules in addtion to the 'Poly constraints (no re-homing, etc.)

#2 -- If anyone discovers Industrialization, we lose. GAME OVER.

#1 -- The last tech we will research is Tactics. (better get Magnetism beforehand…)

We're the Sioux -- and we'd like to get back with all those folks who smacked us with better technology.

(snip)

Bloodlust.
MGE. Giga.
Restarts…ON. .

Pick up & go...(no formal list yet, and maybe not at all...)

Did I miss something? Was a "no trade/no gift" clause inserted at some point?

[Elephant]

JR - I don't think BM was quoting a game rule, just STRONGLY "suggesting" we not tech trade after his MPE love-fest. With tech progress a losing condition for this game we need to discourage AI progress as much as possible.

I like the way several people have restated the Game Rules at the top of their logs.

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
We can try a "Fundy-like" research strategy to slow the AI down. We need Medicine (ST) and Feudalism (STWA), then we can drop the science slider to 10% and use trade for the discoveries.

Might as well switch to a caravan-trading tech strategy sooner rather than later. Med would be nice for the SSC but Feud is not a pre-condition for conquest. Build and deliver the caravans and it will be along shortly.

A tangent applying to Early Landing Games: I don't like gifting Indust in those games because they always go for Commie, which blows my MPE. There does seem to be some directedness (to kill WOW's) in the AI research choices.

Enough players have commented about AI research skewing toward Wonder-obsoleting techs that we can consider it a general principle. A few times in EL games I used the building of Oracle to encourage their research toward MT and Theology. Once a few of them have Indust, though, I like to give it to all of them because the immediate result is they start building Transports, which make great bribery targets.

[Bloody Monk]

I am sure the confusion is my fault; sorry you were misled, JR.

As the unruly principal author of this principle I hope not to be ruled in violation of making new rules in the guise of strategy.

No, it's not a rule. So if you want to help the AI along by gifting them all our techs you are free to do that.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Trajanus
No I give up, someone else play this turn. I don't understand the whole concept of caravans anyway. I just build troops

What do you not understand, T?? No time like the present to learn something new, right?? It's okay to ask. I do it all the time.

Monk

[-Jrabbit]

I seem to be perceptually challenged this week...

[Elephant]

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[Traianvs]

What to do with all the caravans.. They only help wonders, but what's the use of them even if you're not building wonders. They could be used to complete a wonder in just a few turns or even 1 turn, but that's it really. Why not simply spam military troops and raze the Japanese and Russians right away

[debeest]

Boy, Trajanus, are you likely to get swamped with responses on trade! I, being closer than average to your apparent position on trade, will try to ease you into it.

A caravan used to build a Wonder is worth 50 shields, which is worth 200 gold toward building the Wonder. Simple and straightforward.

A caravan delivered for trade produces a delivery bonus plus an ongoing trade route. The delivery bonus can range from small to very large, depending on many factors, and the gold bonus is matched by an equal science bonus. So deliveries worth more than 100g produce more immediate value than Wonder-building. Deliveries worth less than 100g produce less immediate value than Wonder-building.

Trade routes can range anywhere from 0 arrows up to around maybe 30 arrows per turn.

Many people here are convinced that one of the earliest highest priorities is to establish three trade routes in their capital/SSC.

My own opinion is that neither the delivery bonus nor the trade route is likely to pay off as well as Wonder-building until you have a combination of several of the multipliers that add value to the delivery bonus: demanded commodity, foreign civ, foreign continent, long distance, cities with large combined trade. If you look at the formula for delivery bonus (in the Great Library), you can fairly easily calculate the approximate delivery bonus from any caravan.

Until I can confidently deliver caravans worth more than 100g, I use caravans mostly for Wonder-building. Once your value is exceeding 100g, it's often better to deliver and then use the gold to buy the Wonders.

Building a caravan costs 50 shields; rush-buying it row-by-row costs on the order of 125 gold. So, any delivery bonus over half of 125g is likely to pay the entire cost of the caravan immediately, plus potentially begin to pay trade route dividends.

If you're producing more caravans than you can use to build Wonders, it may be worthwhile to deliver them in trade. On the other hand, if their delivery value is still below 62g, you're probably better off building something else.

Trade route payoffs depend only on combined trade of the cities, foreign-trade multiplier, and road/railroad connection. Trade routes are generally very small (0-4 arrows) until cities are grown and connected.

[Bloody Monk]

Excellent piece on Camels, debeest. Very solid in theory. In practice, I would make one smallish change to the theory. I apply a tougher standard, what I call the "Sustainable Cash Flow Hurdle."

Beakers and on-going Trade Routes are a very important consideration, to be sure. But, you can't eat them; or more to the point, you can't buy the next camel without the cash. So, I make the bonus cutoff ~125g, double what you say. The rest is a ditto.

Now, if we could just get Trajanus to be serious. You weren't being serious were you, T?? Perhaps my perceptions are being challenged, too.

Old and Slow is free to play or anyone else (not restricted) can take a turn.

Monk

[debeest]

Good point, Monk. When you get to the point where you can rushbuy the camel and then the delivery pays for it immediately, the science and the trade route are free, and you've got the goose that lays the golden eggs. I suppose that's why someone famously declared a few years ago, "If you don't have a pressing reason to build something else, build caravans."