Early Landings Comparison Game #8

[Bloody Monk]

Landing in 975a

This was a fun game which I did not do justice to; the map had much greater potential than I was able to realize. Too much rust and an inability to keep my concentration at the required level took a heavy toll. Still, after a long layoff, to finish pre-1000 was satisfying.

Things I could have done better:

Shouldn't have slowed research in favor of taxes for white goods in helper cities; waited too long to research Invention (not so lucky as to get it by AI trade in 25b.), which delayed getting Democracy, RR, etc; overly delayed food-improvements around SSC, delaying max size; delayed putting in the
full compliment of helper cities and colonies. Forgot how to reopen supply slots in helpers (Wonder Bread didn't work).

I doubt that I will be able to type up my turn log. But, re-reading Solo's log, I see that my path thru the tech tree pretty much followed his--just not as swiftly .

I went to Fundy after launch and took the Persian cities, built in a great pile of launderettes and completed several Wonders. I'll post a save just before Launch and another just before Landing. A lot of cities were allowed to grow after the Democracy restratints were lifted.

Hope some other folk finish this. It is a very good map for Early Landing efforts.

Monk

prelaunch

[Bloody Monk]

Summary for EL8

Summary Format

Governments

2050b.. Monarchy
525b.. Republic
540a.. Democracy
963a.. Communism/Fundamentalism

Wonders

950b.. MPE
725b.. HG
500b.. Michaelangelo's
325b.. ST
225b.. Colossus
60a.. Copernicus
220a.. Isaac's
340a.. Leo
560a.. Darwin's
800a.. SETI
880a.. Apollo

SSC stats

375b.. size 8
275b.. size 12
25b.. size 21...(140,300,380,460,480,510,520)
580a.. max. size...29

Techs

1550b.. Trade
280a.. Invention
540a.. Railroad
520a.. Democracy
680a.. Automobile
760a.. Nuclear Power
780a.. Computers
800a.. Flight
880a.. Space Flight
21.. Total Techs from AI trades

960a.. Launch
975a.. AC arrival

pre-landing save

Monk (Happy Easter, everyone!!)

[La Fayette]

Monk



Those guys are playing "Early landing stars and stripes" for you (many more landing stars than landing stripes ).

Happy Easter!

[solo]

Monk,

It was great to see you were able to play and finish a good game gaining you entry into the sub 1000 AD club!

It took many of us as many ELG games as you have played so far to manage this.

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks, fellows. It was nice to play again. While I have had pre-1000 landings from the "old days", this was the first under the more restrictive rules we use now, no starting techs, no huts. A more focused effort, favoring science always, would have yielded a better result, but, I let myself get tempted away too often. I only did the first two, so maybe I'll go back and try some of the other EL Games.

I suspect my city site choices, which were made with future development in mind, were not as good, re commodity availability, as some of Solo's sites. I just don't have the head-space anymore to get around that concept. But this map, with its excellent SSC site, was great to play with.

Here's to more and better Landings in all our futures.

Monk

[offa]

I am almost exclusively a civ3 player, but used to play a lot of civ2. At least I thought I played Civ2; I see now that the game I played bore little relationship with the game Solo plays. These games of Solo seem more like a work of art than a game of civ2.

Anyway, I have attempted to follow this game from Solo's timeline. I have managed to get to about 800bc, about 150-200 years behind where Solo was, but got seriously left behind after that, probably as I can't follow the nuaces of the log. I can see that a lot of clever micromanagement must be involved. Do you have any intermediate save games to show the sorts of things you were doing (eg 1000bc, 750bc, 500bc etc)?

One thing I do wonder about though is barbarians. It seems that a lot of luck is needed early on to avoid them: that is before you can bribe them. The trade business (blocking and so on) is completely mysterious to me, and frankly I am relieved I don't have to deal with it in Civ3.

Mainly though: I wish to congratulate you on this astonishing play. Unbelievable.

[solo]

Offa,

Thanks for the kind words.

Below is a zip file with a few saves from the game, so you can get a better idea of what was being done at various times. I assume you've seen the strategy guide in the Civ II strategy forum, which I have tried to keep up to date. Included in posts about ELG #7 are a number of saves from Zenon's game and from my own.

With the newest robust Monarchy approach, as used in this game, barbarians that appear before diplomats are available are not as much as problem, since many warriors are built for happiness control. It was riskier in earlier games having empty cities, and I once had my SSC taken out by barbs and in ELG #6 I even abandoned my medium map game due to repeated attacks by barbs very early in that game.

[offa]

Thanks Solo. I will study those saves to try to work out what you were doing.

I have read your strategy guide, or at least the start of it. The trade bit was beyond me, probably because it is very alien to a civ 3 player but the guide was superb. I see that you build a lot more towns now, which is fine as it suits the way I would tend to play in Civ3.

I don't know if you play civ3 but you would undoubtably be very good at it, as although the trade and science and growth by wltpd etc is all different the same principle applies of succeeding by attention to detail.

[solo]

I have played Civ III and it is a very good game, but I prefer the greater complexity, depth and detail of Civ II, and do not expect any other computer game to ever be as enjoyable to learn and play as this classic.

For me some other plusses and minuses of Civ III are:

+

More "intelligent" and competitive AI
Addition of the concept of culture and borders
Randomnization and clustering of special resources
More options when making deals with the AI
Addition of worker units
Better interface
Use of different traits to distinguish nations

-

Poor and missing documentation
Poor playtesting and debugging before release
Watered down wonders (these and national traits should be strengthened instead)
Smaller and more congested maps take away much of the fun of early exploration and discovery
Trade, the best feature of Civ II, is almost totally lacking

A lot of these minuses apply to most newer games, too. Developers feel they must have the latest in 3-D animations and fancy graphics. This slows play down and forces cutbacks in detail, complexity and depth.

[offa]

I have finally played this game (landed in 1651ad) and so Have the distinction of being very late in playing it as well as late in landing. I played it mainly as a "tutorial" for me so had a lot of restarts. I tried to follow Solo's log as well.

The pre 1000ad landings are very impressive. I presume a lot of micromanagement was going on that is hard to duplicate. All errors are gradually compounded and so the landing keeps drifting back.

I found the very early game, ie before hanging gardens very tough because of unhappiness. Manging the SSC expansion isn't easy either. I was doing this several hundred years after Solo, and eventually stalled at size 28

The final bit of the game was even harder. For some reason my SSC only produced about 1000 beakers and this together with the helpers was never enough for 1 tech per turn. I think not getting Colosuss and not sorting out the rr bonus with Madrid until near the end hurt me. With freight I more or less got a tech most turns, but 2 techs was way beyond my reach.

I wasn't at all organized with caravans and didn't get nearly enough payoffs. My trade suffered a dreadful slump after invention which lasted ages. However, I do now have a much better understanding of Civ2 trade than I ever did when I was a regular player. I managed to keep the SSC supply unblocked most of the time, and successfully unblocked commodities in limbo with wonder bread. I eventually set up the lucrative trade routes with Madrid by displacing the existing foreign routes with one from my most trade rich helper, and then delivering to Madrid having minimzed the helper's trade.

Anyway I enjoyed it, and my landing date beat my previous best by several hundred years. Letting rip at the AI while waiting for the space ship was nice.

The game certainly has a very different feel from Civ3. This may have been a favourable map, but the AI are very weak, and it is like playing a regent level Civ3 game. As a result the human player has a pretty free run at the game: very different from the crowded war torn maps in Civ3. I think this probably helps extremely accurate players to shine even more in Civ2. In some ways my game wasn't bad I think, but it sure looks lame in this company.

[Bloody Monk]

Sounds like your game is progressing nicely!! Getting a good handle on Trade is not easy, so this was a very good game for you. You are correct that much (almost constant) micromanaging is necessary, but, for me, this part of the game is like a concentration exercise. Sometimes I can almost hear the sound of one hand clapping.

Probably, if you were to post some saves, Solo and others might give you more specific insight and ideas to try next time.

Monk

[offa]

Here are some saves from my game. Any suggestions gratefully recieved.

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=21009_SI_B950.SAV

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=21009_SI_B525.SAV

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=21009_SI_A120.SAV

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=21009_SI_A580.SAV

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=21009_SI_A1040.SAV

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=21009_SI_A1200.SAV

http://apolyton.net/upload/view.php?file=21009_SI_A1630.SAV

[solo]

Hi Offa,

I hope you are enjoying EL play. It takes a lot of practice, and I remember how hard it was to keep up with the progress listed in the logs posted by the best OCC players when I was first learning to play that way. I always seemed to be slipping behind.

There is an incredible amount of micro-management involved, especially early in the game. All those little things do add up during the course of a game.

From your saves, I can see you have followed the plan I used for city expansion. In the 950 BC save, the big problem I see is that you have set science at only 50%. If it has been there for awhile, this must have delayed your discovery of Trade, which must be as early as possible. A good game hinges on making the most out of those caravans, so the earlier you get them, the better.

I noticed your size 28 SSC in the last save was missing a sewer system. You must have sold yours off and forgot that it was needed to continue growth.

In your saves, I also noticed fewer colonies and am not surprised, since the best time to start them is sooner than is convenient. With so many priorities in the early game, it becomes too easy to let colony development slide and take a back seat.

You are right about there being a dead spot in trade after the discovery of Invention (or Navigation), since learning either halves payoffs. I usually delay the discovery of these two as long as possible and build up beakers all I can beforehand. I also try to make the most out of early game trade, before payoffs are cut.

Losing the Colossus to the Greeks must have really hurt your progress during this part of the game, too, and must have been a major reason you could not progress more quickly early on. This happened to me in a previous EL game, and there isn't too much you can do about AI wonder choices except hope that they don't build one you need before you can build it yourself.

For more science later, you really need that extra RR bonus in the SSC to get 2 advances per turn. I think my SSC was putting out half again as many beakers as your own. That RR bonus provides a huge boost, much more so than gains achieved by farmland and the extra citizens this can provide.

I played Civ3 quite a bit when it first came out, but disliked the smaller maps, and lack of detail. They really made an effort to beef up the AI abilities at Deity level, and with the latest patch, they put an end to some of the techniques we had been using to overcome the huge AI advantage. I think they overdid this in Civ III, but do give them credit for making the AI play smarter than they do in Civ II.

In Civ III, you are forced to play a certain way to succeed, and too much of the detail and complexity has been taken out of Civ II in the name of reducing micro-management. There just wasn't too much that was new to discover about Civ III after playing it for a few months, but many prefer it, and to each his own, I guess.

Anyways, I hope some of your questions are answered, and if you have any more, I'll try to provide some good answers. Meanwhile, enjoy playing!

[offa]

Thanks for the advice Solo: much appreciated.

Re your points: I am also a little surprised to see my science spending being low on the 950bc save. I think this was temporary because I was anxious to short rush caravans for the Hanging Gardens. I found the game almost unplayable before this was built because of unhappiness. I suppose it is predictable (eg 5th town in despotism etc) but I came to dread founding each new town because of the potential unhappiness it caused in all the others. I ended up building more warriors than needed, and building them too early to avoid the unhappiness. This slowed my initial expansion, but I can tell from your log that you managed to keep building warriors just in time to avoid unhappiness. This seems nearly impossibly difficult to me. At least in civ3 you have a turns grace before a city riots.

Another of my civ3 habits my have hindered me here. In Civ 3 early expansion is key, as the AI are quick at expanding themselves, and early unhappiness is easier to deal with than in civ1 and 2. Entertainers are almost never needed. Therefore I almost always maximize food and growth instead of production. I see now that in civ 2, growing beyond size 2 is problematic and so production has to be maximized rather than food.

I think the reason my SSC stalled at size 28, was that I terraformed the specials too soon, and so had no food surplus left when I reached size 28. After supermarkets and farmland there was a surplus, but it seems nigh on impossible to have wttpd without the HG in operation, and I could'nt get a settler to join the city.

I actually feel a little uneasy about knowing where the specials are: it feels exploitative, but I terraformed them anyway as it is so powerful. The calculation of wildcards (frankly beyond me) also seems exploitative, albeit brilliant. However, some of the trade stuff I really like. The way in which big cities demand different stuff from small ones and cities supply and demand depends on their local surrounds and distance from the poles etc is really charming. I had always assumed it was random, but the system used does great credit to the designers, as it adds depth to the game. Your efforts and those of Samson etc in working this and everything else out are remarkable: a lttle like the decoding of Linear B!

Not getting the Colossus was a lame play: just 4 caravans! I realize now that flight can be left until quite late on and so it is really useful.

I suspect that I choose a lot of unnecessary techs, which would have increased my costs as the game went on. For example I choose to research theology for Bachs Cathredral, which proved to be pretty unhelpful in the end. After this I had some very unappetizing techs offered and ended up researching stuff like Fundamentalism. This was fun to use after the launch but was a waste before this. In games when you did pop huts, how did you avoid the acquisition of useless techs which just increase carrying costs?

I do see now that you acheived a substantial science output from your helpers. I was clearly too slow with these. The colony near the Frence only got built quite late, and the Persians had already part colonized the west of their island when I settled there. In Civ3 distant colonies don't produce much, and are largely built for score, and resources and this may be a reason (excuse) for why I neglected them a little. I certainly didn't get them to grow very well with the SSC. In your earlier, leaner games with early Republic you had only a few helpers so how did you achieve the necessary science then?

[solo]

Offa,

In answer to a few new questions:

Yes, a food surplus is another requirement for growth by celebration. Adding settlers stops working when the city reaches a certain size, (I believe it's size 8). When the HG is unavailable for celebrations above size 21, a palace or courthouse (in Democracy) will supply the extra happy citizen needed to start things off.

You are right about too many cities upsetting things, which is the reason for advancing to higher forms of government that tolerate more cities. It's best to keep cities at size 2 or lower early on, which suits us since we are wanting more settlers to add more cities, colonies and roads anyways. HG as soon as possible relieves happiness a lot in a robust Monarchy game, and allows more cities than are usual at that stage for the game. Even so, there is a lot of micro going on, a lot of shifting warriors about as needed to keep cities content. That's why I always add roads on the way to founding each new helper.

Knowledge of special locations shouldn't be a source of uneasiness since they fall into a very predictable pattern. If they were scattered randomly as in Civ III, it would be a different matter. As always, any exploit such as this, wildcards, using Oedo years, etc., will have its supporters and opponents. It boils down to personal preference whether one decides to use none, some, or any one that helps!

Unwanted techs sometimes did come from huts in earlier games when huts were used. Some games I played were spoiled by this and I never ended up posting details of all those attempts where everything went wrong! Even so, one way to minimize the chances of unwanted techs was to avoid popping huts when the odds of an unwanted tech appearing were high, since the probabilities of various techs appearing change as each new one is acquired. When the odds were best for getting a desired tech, then huts were tipped to try and take advantage of this.

One way to develop helper and colony science that is often neglected is to establish trade routes for them, too. Many times they are ignored in favor of SSC trades. Early on in each game, I make it a point to try and get at least one route in place for each minor city. This adds beakers and helps control happiness.

In lean, mean early Republic, the extra science came from the extra trade arrows generated by being in a Republic and by keeping the science slider pegged at 80%. More cities (up to 8) could be added earlier in the game too, without causing extra unhapiness. Temples were built all around very early also, to get everything possible out of each size 3 helper or colony.