Two cities using one square?

[SCG]

i just happened to be passing by and thought i'd add my 2 cents

Originally posted by solo
Mercator,

Try a test to know for sure, but I doubt that any route across the dateline will work, since distance calculations are used for caravan payoffs across the line and these work correctly.

maybe i'm missing something, or maybe its my version of MGE, but i tried a simple test (after trying some more complicated ones) and put berlin on one side of the IDL and Leipzig on the other side, and without a road, berlin delivers hides for 44 gp, with a road it delivers 66 gp, and with a railroad connection it delivers 88gp - small map (20x50)

you might note that the only complete road crosses the IDL. I tried originally building depot cities and a road the long way first, but broke that RR connection.

[Bloody Monk]

Maybe it is because the two cities are both German, and therefore, the game doesn't do the same calculation. Most of the previous work I have seen dealt with delivery to a foreign civ.

I fiddled a bit with your save but could not get the Persian settler to build city. Too much jungle out there, I suppose. On a grass map, he might build.

BTW, I got the same payoffs you described.

Monk

[SCG]

Originally posted by Bloody Monk
I fiddled a bit with your save but could not get the Persian settler to build city. Too much jungle out there, I suppose. On a grass map, he might build.
Monk

i made the map with just the 3 prime building spots to try and force the game to place the settlers at the IDL for each civ - silly me for thinking that it would work

I'll try in non-MGE with grass and see what happens

[SCG]

as a followup, in civ 2.42, I get the same results - putting the road and railroad in only across the IDL, i get significantly increased payoffs (48,72,96) moscow to st pete, and (56,83,112) Kiev to Tenochtitlan

[Bloody Monk]

Well, these results are very different from what has happened before in actual games on standard maps. Can't imagine that map style makes a difference or that overlapping city tiles would matter, either.

Would it be too much to ask for you to make a standard medium map with a foreign city more than eight clicks away from the other city on the other side of the dateline??

Curiouser and curiouser.

Monk

[solo]

Monk,

Err, yes, that was AD! I looked at Father Beast's game and was wondering how he did it until I noticed it was at Warlord level. A nice little empire and SSC in any event.

After downloading these testson routes, I think I have figured out what is going on. When there is a direct connection between the two cities the payoffs and route bonuses behave as usual.

The dateline only makes a difference when a station city is being used in place of a contiguous connection. The notion that the dateline affects route bonuses originally came from Samson's post about the use of station cities.

Father Beast,

The r/rr bonus is the road and rail bonuses for trade routes when the two cities involved have been connected by a road and/or railroad. The value of the trade routes goes up once these connections have been made.

[SCG]

couple more updates. i did a standard medium map (50x80) with a island that crossed the idl, and no road bonus was observed.

I then tried another belt continent (medium map), both with and without a depot and a foreign city just on the other side of the IDL. again no road bonus was observed.

only conclusion i can seem to come to is that on the small map (20x50), even though the x coordinates are doubled - ie we have a (39,49), it is still within the minimum distance meet the road bonus reguardless of which route is taken

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks for doing the extra test, SCG. So, the conventional wisdom holds for "normal" maps. It is funny to create an explorer in Rome and hold down on the mouse cursor over Bejing and have the explorer go off the other way.

@Solo,

One of the EL games had a Zero Line situation, remember?? I tried after that game finished to build a road connection. I basically put roads on all the tiles because I couldn't be sure what the "true path" was. Even roaded there was no bonus; so, it is not just a station situation...if I am recalling everything correctly.

Monk

[Bloody Monk]

Father Beast,

As Solo said road/RR bonus is a factor that increases the value of delivery and ongoing trade routes. Here is a link to the definitive study on the subject of trade bonus factors. Many factors are involved, road/RR being only part of the whole story.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?postid=1373760#post1373760

Don't worry about the math at first. Just read thru to get a feel for the various factors.

Hope this helps.

Monk

[Mercator]

Thanks SCG! (and great to see I was right, although that doesn't exactly make a lot of difference)

I don't really know anything about trade, so I wouldn't have been able to do any proper testing myself.

[Zenon]

Interesting! I did some tests, too, and it seems that the only reason why the road/railroad bonus does normally not work across the date line is the maximum distance. In my tests the maximum distance on a small or very small map was 21 (not 22 as on medium and large maps). The maximum distance is not calculated across the date line. Therefore a road/railroad connection (or a station) works across the date line, but the bonus only applies if the other city is not more than 21 steps away in the other direction.

Zenon

[Zenon]

Solo,

congratulations on your 499 AD Landing! Would you care to tell us more about it?

Zenon

[Bloody Monk]

Originally posted by Zenon
bonus only applies if the other city is not more than 21 steps away in the OTHER direction.

Zenon

Thanks Zenon, for clarifying that point. I capped 'other' in your quote for emphasis as I had to read it several times before it sunk in. Must need a nap. It all makes sense now.

Solo,

I echo Zenon's query; what size map, any surprises or special challenges? Maybe you would consider a new thread with the save and commentary. I doubt you kept a log, but that is no problem.

Monk

[solo]

Okay, I will start a thread with the start I used in the game, since it looks like Zenon may want to try it. Maybe some others would like to join in.

Looks like we are getting to the bottom of this r/rr thing. Many researchers bring quick answers to our qeustions.

[Bloody Monk]

Thanks, Solo; I may give it a go as well, though I may not finish.

Monk