New Pitboss Game

[Beta]

Originally posted by snoopy369


I will not play this game if this (particular) rule is invoked. This is simply unacceptable due to the time limitations of PTBS. Basically you're making it a sequential turn game when you are at war, which means those of us with a shorter window (once a day, say) opportunity to play the game are restricted from doing so.

If you want to require a turn between declaration of war to avoid surprise wars, fine, so be it. However the rule becomes too onerous if it applies during all war turns.

"Holy Reaction, Batman!"

Don't quit snoop! We love you!

I understand your point. You are saying that essentially this will reduce civs at war into a 12 hour turn timer, seqential pitboss game. Hmmm. Yes. I see your argument.

I guess the 50% rule will work in the warlords demo game, using a 48 hour turn timer, and 4 to 6 people per team who can play the turn. It is probably asking too much to make it work in a 24 hour turn, 'single' player game.

[Rommel2D]

Originally posted by Beta
I understand your point. You are saying that essentially this will reduce civs at war into a 12 hour turn timer, seqential pitboss game. Hmmm. Yes. I see your argument.

There's nothing really like sequential-turn about this rule. It just moves the synchronus window to play your turn around and changes its size- it could even make the game slower and harder for a player to play their turn than sequential would if that window happens to fall at the wrong time.

Problems like this really should be handled by mechanisms in the game program. These rules introduce increasingly elaborate logistical concerns (depending on how thorough they are) upon the players and in effect can give a game advantage to someone who is careless and makes mistakes, forgetting what the self-imposed restrictions are supposed to be. To avoid this you can just say "let's not exploit this flaw in the system, Ok guys?", but then you're back to the action-figure-and-Cliffsnotes combat, pussyfooting around the poorly designed game mechanic. If someone has 'honorable' intentions, why were they the first to attack anyway?

There are also a number of complications that could be made out of the rule as stated- what if the person moving last doesn't actually flip the turn, but leaves the clock sit for the last hour or two before the full 24hour period expires? Should the rule be worded so that it applies to the last person with an active turn rather than only if they actually flip it? Then again, everyone knows when the full clock is set to expire, so this wouldn't be as much of an exploit as ending the turn early and making an immediate second move with the units. What if the person declaring war is the second last to go, and the last player flips the turn a fraction of an hour later? Is the instigator free to move their units immediately for the new turn without the attacked player having much chance to respond?

[Rommel2D]

Originally posted by Beta
I guess the 50% rule will work in the warlords demo game, using a 48 hour turn timer, and 4 to 6 people per team who can play the turn. It is probably asking too much to make it work in a 24 hour turn, 'single' player game.

One suggestion for using any kind of movement lockout rule the first turn of a war, especially for demogames if not already covered, would be to require email notification of a war declaration preceding any attack in game. This would make the freeze period more effective, and it could be reduced from the rather harsh 50% ratio- 25% or so should give someone time to respond if they receive active notification of the declaration.

Oh, and another note in case anyone didn't realize this, once you are in the war and know the turn-flip double-move could be used against you, if you don't end your turn after moving your units you will know exactly when the next turn starts and plan to log in for it (barring schedule conflict). This isn't an ideal solution any more than the rejected rule would have been, but it is a non-exploitive part of the game mechanics that doesn't rely on side agreements. It will slow the game down during a war, but won't cause anyone to miss their turn

[Beta]

Originally posted by Rommel2D

There's nothing really like sequential-turn about this rule. It just moves the synchronus window to play your turn around and changes its size- it could even make the game slower and harder for a player to play their turn than sequential would if that window happens to fall at the wrong time.

Yes - that is in fact what I was trying to say.

Problems like this really should be handled by mechanisms in the game program.

Agreed. But we do not have such mechanisms.

If someone has 'honorable' intentions, why were they the first to attack anyway?

Are you some kind of builder/peacenik type???

There are also a number of complications that could be made out of the rule as stated- what if the person moving last doesn't actually flip the turn, but leaves the clock sit for the last hour or two before the full 24hour period expires? Should the rule be worded so that it applies to the last person with an active turn rather than only if they actually flip it? Then again, everyone knows when the full clock is set to expire, so this wouldn't be as much of an exploit as ending the turn early and making an immediate second move with the units. What if the person declaring war is the second last to go, and the last player flips the turn a fraction of an hour later? Is the instigator free to move their units immediately for the new turn without the attacked player having much chance to respond?

Agreed, agreed , and agreed. But since it isn't a perfect world, or a perfect game dynamic, we are trying to work around it.

[Pinchak]

UGH... all this gives me a headache.

[Beta]

Originally posted by Rommel2D

One suggestion for using any kind of movement lockout rule the first turn of a war, especially for demogames if not already covered, would be to require email notification of a war declaration preceding any attack in game. This would make the freeze period more effective, and it could be reduced from the rather harsh 50% ratio- 25% or so should give someone time to respond if they receive active notification of the declaration.

I like this approach.

Oh, and another note in case anyone didn't realize this, once you are in the war and know the turn-flip double-move could be used against you, if you don't end your turn after moving your units you will know exactly when the next turn starts and plan to log in for it (barring schedule conflict). This isn't an ideal solution any more than the rejected rule would have been, but it is a non-exploitive part of the game mechanics that doesn't rely on side agreements. It will slow the game down during a war, but won't cause anyone to miss their turn

Yes, that would work. But not exactly the ideal solution, as you say.

[Pinchak]

The private message solution is not bad at all.

24 hours before declaring war you must send a private message to the defender of your intentions?

How does that one sit with everyone, as opposed to the 12 hour freeze?

[Wittlich]

Well, I for one, have reservations about notifying the person you are about to rape your intentions as such with a 24 hour notice in advance ... Quite frankly, I really don't see how this will hold up in the long run ... (think long-term folks) ... but that is my 2 cents worth.

[Beta]

Originally posted by Wittlich
Well, I for one, have reservations about notifying the person you are about to rape your intentions as such with a 24 hour notice in advance ... Quite frankly, I really don't see how this will hold up in the long run ... (think long-term folks) ... but that is my 2 cents worth.

Witt - I agree with you on this. I took Rom's suggestion to mean that if you are decalring war - you can still move your FIRST turn, and then send an e-mail. Wait until the other player has played - and then play your second - with the turn timer rolling somewhere in there.

In other words, I took his suggestion regarding the email as an extension of the rule that Pinchak had already introduced, and was generally agreed to.

But now that I read it again, Rommel's suggestion was clearly intended to be an email BEFORE your first move. And thus endeth any chance of a surprise attack. Hmmm...

[Rommel2D]

I mean before as in 10 seconds before if you wish- as close to synchronized with the attack as you would like, without the alert lagging after the fact.

And yeah, it would still require a freeze to be helpful, but not as much as 12 hours...

[Pinchak]

I see your point Witt. The purpose of even trying to come up with a rule is not to nessisarily warn defenders of attack, but simply to close an exploit.

Ok, forget the PM idea...

[Rommel2D]

Originally posted by Beta
Are you some kind of builder/peacenik type???

No. Are you a Bush 'Merican or something?

[Pinchak]

Also, concerning this entire conversation regarding the double move when declairing war.

I think people have to keep in mind this ONLY applys if you are the last to play a turn, AND declaring war.

Just to put it into perspective... I'll use some rough numbers here but you will get the picture...

Lets assume that over the period of a game you declare war 5 times.

Lets assume the game has 8 players. That means that on any given turn you have a 12.5% chance of being the last to play (all things being equal).

This means that over the span of the entire game, there is a 62% chance you will encounter this rule once.

[Beta]

Originally posted by Rommel2D

No. Are you a Bush 'Merican or something?

I'm a liberal-a$$ed Canadian, or so conmcb says. But it is the truth.

[Rommel2D]

Yeah, well con sucks anyway...