Lizzy's rise to greatness

[Hercules]

Also this was OT4E's view's Sept 19th.

Dont take it personal I didnt meant that admin ruling was unfair and I never asked for a one. Game is unfair because everyone plays against CP. Remember even three musketeers scheduled duels one by one but not at the same time. If you are seeking for a fair revenge you know what to do

But returning to the game and the situation. I dont feel that calling a game is fair. My proposal was to give a chance to everyone (may be except Civfr, but whatever can happen if we agree on AW) to take the lead. But it requires 'always war' or 'always peace' rule to make it being decided by the game mechanics but not the diplomatic tables.

Of course, I fully understand that this situation where everyone is seeking for a revenge on us is caused by me. Others seems to be better in diplomacy. Well done.
If you want to call it right now I can propose the following order to vote:
1) Apolyton - obviously done better than others this game. Actually we have lost the game on turn 194.
2) CivPlayers - we were heavily outplaying others before they started cooperating
3) CFC - could have been in troubles without serious help from UCIV
4) UCIV - personally I cant accept that you have done better by just being in the right place all the time.
5) CivFR - unfortunatelly didnt pay attention and give chance to our survival plan.

I honestly beleive that you can make it finish like AP, CFC, UCIV, CivFr and CP or whatever you guys want to prove to yourself. I will be happy to "autoplay" turns since the game is not interesting in its current state and I dont know the way to play it good without spending several hours on each turn. Or may be Bemep somehow manages to beat everyone, that you cant exclude completely. In my mind he deserves victory for just spending more time in game than all others combined and of course making us doing that good.

I will be happy to start some other pitboss that can be more interesting considering the following things:
- smaller map is a way to go
- my personal wish is to have less balanced map (in fact it is one of the reasons why it becomes not interesting. 4 big civs have all the resources, no istmus or anything that could make it worth to fight for except just to put someone down)
- no diplomacy or limited diplomacy
- no tricks that you cannot predict. Actually I dont beleive that keeping 1 warrior in city is good idea playing with humans, especially at the stage with commandos and railroads. Is it fair not to raze enemy's cap if you know the way how to do it? Well in spanish apolyton they dont allow to raze cities with more than 9 citizen. Just as an example, you can invent a lot of better ways to fix it.

Take note of comment 2.

That's why this a democracy game, you seek cooperation and NAPs.

[Hercules]

The problem is that I cant make turn myself. I really apologize for this, but this week I am just too busy in RL.

BUT havent we decided to finish game without playing it on? I am not fan of such endings but I dont see how we can speed up right now considering that my team depends on bemep's availability and UCIV is not showing at all. So saying it is just my team's issue is not completely correct. If we are going to draw it but play some turns on for fun then I dont understand this hurry. I havent heard any objections against draw yet but in general we agree on any result suiting other teams if it helps us to stop bringing extra inconvenience for others.

This is from OT4E at CFC in response to posts from Caledorn and us.

I don't accept this reason, nor should he implicate Uciv. He could have responded days ago or played the turn. If he cannot play it for some computer reason and there is no other turn player backup, so be it. If no team can provide a turn player at all, that reflects on the team.

[mzprox]

Since in the last x turns,or i should say last few months ( ) I prepared an invasion, I'd like to see how it goes.. but after some turns in it I think we should end the game. doesn't really matters who wins since not too many care about this game anyway and we know how we and others did. We accept a draw knowing that we had a good chance to actually score an ingame victory.. if not the world would had ended before that..

[MJW]

I have a lineage here if you worried I'm a double-login if that's what you are implying. I've been pushing for "25 turns" because that would favor us--even telling MZ to go lock it down in the CFC thread. However, MZ said that he wanted a three-way draw and I suggested my trick of openly killing maya and HRE, so they cannot vote anymore, and then agree to a draw so MZ could get what he wanted.

I think it is more accurate to say that I'm against trying to make this game end by normal means (in-game victory) because there is no way that could happen. So it's just a waste of time. CivPlayers going NMR backs me up. Two weeks per turn alone =

[Hercules]

So when can we call this game dead? I would suggest a 5-way draw because it needs to be unanimous and there's no way Maya and HRE would suicide. It doesn't make sense to make civplayers lose when the Maya situation was worse. A real game would have been called when Maya had to bring in a turnplayer from RB or it would continue with Maya not moving at all.

With all due respect MJW, since you have arrived you have advocated a draw, and stridently,from the start.

I am beginning to suspect that has been your only purpose. So tell me I am wrong.

[MJW]

So when can we call this game dead? I would suggest a 5-way draw because it needs to be unanimous and there's no way Maya and HRE would suicide. It doesn't make sense to make civplayers lose when the Maya situation was worse. A real game would have been called when Maya had to bring in a turnplayer from RB or it would continue with Maya not moving at all.

[Hercules]

I think we should ask for the game to be unpaused, if no progress, within 24/36 hours. And we should alert Uciv to this step.

Further that the turn time limits be adhered to from now on unless a formal request is made and a good reason given. Any such request will, as before, be generally agreed, again with time limits set.

[MJW]

That was not an option. Aztec and CFC refused to accept 5-way draw while Maya and HRE refuse to accept three-way draw. So ether way we don't have 2/5 or 40% of the vote which is not acceptable as it was decided before the start of the game that it took a unanimous decision from the civs to change the rules in the middle of the game. Agreement was not possible. So one would have to actually play it out (25 turns?), use my trick or let the game die. We "chose" option 3.

Uciv may have not logged-in in response to Aztec's not logging in.

[mzprox]

It's not just aztec, but uciv also hadn't logged in in the last 2-3 weeks..we should had just ended the game with having run it for 8-10 turns w/o pauses just for fun

[MJW]

If CivPlayers just rage-quit this game is a farce and we should end it. I don't think my three-way draw idea (kill off Maya and HRE and then agree to a draw) would fly so we would have to go with five-way draw//no contest. 2/5 vote is more than enough to stop the admin from ruling in our favor.

Edit: It doesn't make sense to forfeit Aztecs (if this game ends) as the Maya situation was far worse.

Edit2: Nevermind, a CivPlayers member posted. So only it's only their turn-player. Their new turn player would probably be weaker which is good for us.

[mzprox]

I have good communication with cfc's representative.

[MJW]

This might sound obvious but you should work with CFC to attack on the same time.

[Hercules]

That's more like it.

[mzprox]

I postponed the invasion by one turn to get a better position and even more units ready. Soon aztec cities will burn.. We have the most modern and biggest army.. our 20+bombers are in position while they have no real air defense yet. Soon 200+ of our units will attack them from different directions.. and there is cfc too.
However I want to slow down with military unit production and let our cities regrow. We will finish the rock&roll wonder next turn, the Eiffel tower wil lfollow in 6 turns. That will help us with culture and happyness.

[MJW]

It's theoretically possible to ask for GPT to make it "fair" but there is no way that would happen...