Destruction of Foes (DoF) - Diplogame Light

[DNK]

I don't think there are any units left to retreat that haven't already. I'll leave any units around that would potentially be captured by you this turn. None of the cities near your forces produced anything this turn.

I also have no ability to gift units to Carthage this turn, so it shouldn't be an issue.

[Bulgaria (DoF)]

Yeah, just wanted to mention it, never suspected you in a bad faith

BTW, what happened that you did not liked my reasoning and proposal? It was pure-hearted.

[Hungary (DoF)]

After Hungary.

Maybe it's best if you also move after Bulgaria / Egypt.

I didn't finish my turn, some stuff must be discussed with Bulgaria first.

[Carthage (DoF)]

For 'no big fan of this move' you certainly outdid yourself.
Making 21 mechanized infantry out of longbows and stuff is way too gamey for me..

It is fair and all that Egypt transfers air force, airlifts units.. but this ..
And especially since you asked me to wait to log in, until Egypt played, and you just made the remark below just this afternoon.

Originally Posted by Hungary (DoF)Hello,

an OOC remark, I am not a fan of 'city gifting - unit upgrading - city returning' actions. I hope that neither side of this conflict will do such a thing.

If this has been done, it's not against the rules b/c there are no rules, then please let me know so that I do not have to shy away from it either.

Hungary

[Portugal (DoF)]

Game has been paused by Carthage:

I did take my turn and was surprised to see the newly promoted Hungarian Defenders. Guys due to this and its large game implications (having a city on the front to be attacked soon (1-2 turns) be promoted by Egypt makes me ask for a pause and maybe discuss how we will proceed from here on. It is very different to have longbows with some infantries in and now all to have it upgraded to Mechs and thus stopping dead an invasion.

Last but not least, 'city gifting - unit upgrading - city returning' actions' coming from Hungary is very interesting.

[Carthage (DoF)]

THE GAME IS PAUSED


I paused it, because I first think we should discuss the following:

Upgrading 21 units from longbow to mechanized infantry in a front line city by city gifting - upgrading - giving the city back is way too gamey for me.

These game tactics will make it virtualy impossible to conduct a succesfull attack.
It does now seem that two countries with 50+ tanks and lots of other units are not able to conquer a city which was defended by completely obsolete units.

[DNK]

In fairness, me and the Otts did this at the end of the Classical conflict right after conquering Polybotos (perhaps it's fair with a newly captured city, though): we (I was subbing, so I as the Otts) captured the city, then gifted it to myself (Persia) a little later, in order to upgrade spears to pikes, though I never went through with the upgrade as we finalized the peace before it happened. It was gifted back to the Otts after the war finished, iirc, though hardly on the same turn.

Perhaps that was a "grayer" situation than a same-turn gift-regifting of a previously untouched city... but it stinks to a similar degree.

I wasn't very happy about doing it, but felt it necessary to put an end to that conflict. No one seemed to object then (though only 2 people were likely aware of it)... Normally, I'd say this sort of gameyness (the current issue) violates any sort of gentlemanly play, but I'd be slightly hypocritical in saying that in this game, so I won't.

A pause does seem best here. No objections, given the game is slowly coming to a close, we can afford a few pauses to keep things civil.

[Rome (DoF)]

nice to have rules of war with which to agree all of us. It seems that this might be the last war and I hope all of us delight to play.

[Hungary (DoF)]

Carthage, Portugal, I do already regret it now I see that it makes you angry.
My PM to Carthage was honest.
But then I learned that in almost all my wars I have battled against superior units that were promoted by other nations.
Rome would not have existed anymore and would have been Hungarian by now, to name just one example.

Yes, the 21 mechs is quite a lot. But it may be just enough. Just like the Roman upgrades were just enough. (Machine Gunners to stop my Rifles) I am not a fan of this but this game would have been totally different right now if nobody would have done it against me.

For the record, half the units in Debrecen was an infantry already, and I could have promoted all of them to infantry. Now they're one step ahead of infantry. I would not have done it if it would not have been done against me. It made me lose wars that would have changed the game. Now it's done in my advantage.

I'm sorry, next game we should have a rule against it.
If you insist on a reload, then I will consider to not reject it, not at least because I would hate it to see this game end with a fight.

[Carthage (DoF)]

The (few) Roman machine gunners and tanks : these units were brought to Sardinia, upgraded there and shipped back.

I tried to word it carefully:
I am not angry, but I do find this passes a line which (for the greater good of the game) should not be passed.

If you look carefully at the Roman stack you see we didn't do this: there are plenty of rifflemen around.

[Bulgaria (DoF)]

In fairness, me and the Otts did this at the end of the Classical conflict right after conquering Polybotos (perhaps it's fair with a newly captured city, though): we (I was subbing, so I as the Otts) captured the city, then gifted it to myself (Persia) a little later

Good that you say this, but your memories may be a bit obscure - it was long time ago after all, and yet you did not do this only with Polybotos. You gave away to yourself almost all Turkish cities except 2-3 during the active phase of the war and not only you used them for upgrades, but you actively produced modern armies there for long turns, which at the end understandingly overwhelmed me. I did not raised the question back then as there are no official rules in this game, but made a note to myself.

Then the 1-turn gift-upgrade-gift back cycle was introduced to me by Carthage when I was fighting the Russians a bit later to upgrade some 4 units which we did not wanted to wait they to travel the long way by sea from Carthage and they wanted their Lvl3 unit right away to start building Hero Epic I believe - maybe the result was not so dramatic as upgrading 22 LBs to MechInf on the front, but it still deprives me from saying with pure heart that this is unacceptable practice. It is interesting though that Carthage raises the question, when he was the one who was convincing me back then that "it is OK and further more, no one will notice". I say this again - I though it was OK back then since there are no game rules and someone already used this technique against me.

Actually I like the way it is handled in the full-diplo games. "No city gifting during war except to a nation in which you are at war and after the agreement of ALL nations you are currently at war. And no returning of gifted cities earlier than 50 turns." This is brilliant rule - it still allows for some tactics, while making it not so easy to take advantage of.

[Bulgaria (DoF)]

Anyway I do understand the matter and arguments of the problem with this current war, just don't know how we must handle it.

[Carthage (DoF)]

This is true. But I find it an entirely different matter in war time, with so much units..

But as I said: I'd like to discuss it. Otherwise I could have asked for a reload immediately; and I am not doing that.
And I try to refrain from calling anyone anything, as I know that this is a delicate matter, and it is not cheating, but gamey.

What my main point is: if we are saying these kind of tactics are ok, then this has just been the first step, and I think this is not good for the game. Conquering territory is already very hard (if fighting war against a adversary of similar strength) against countries which have railroads. When we allow this, it will be virtually impossible.

From my point of view: It is not what is not allowed, it is what is good for the game.
>> I also could have razed each and every city I conquered from Hungary (and by now it is half his country) but I did not, as I found that it is 'not good for the game'.

This rule is indeed brilliant:

"No city gifting during war except to a nation in which you are at war and after the agreement of ALL nations you are currently at war. And no returning of gifted cities earlier than 50 turns." This is brilliant rule - it still allows for some tactics, while making it not so easy to take advantage of.

[Egypt (DoF)]

I was one of those who insisted a no city trading rule in previous diplogames and proposed a 50 turns no return policy. However in this game I've learned that Carthage was already using this tactic. I was not happy (poor Russians), but this is a no rule diplo game after all. You can't say that doing something in small scale is ok, but large scale is not-or if you want define the line. preferably before we start playing.
I'd feel bad if this would harm the game. So if we agree on a rule now I wouldn't mind a reload. But don't blame us: me and Hungary did nothing what other nations hadn't done before. (Carthage, Bulgaria, Ottomans, Persia)

[Hungary (DoF)]

The scale is not the number of upgraded units, but the impact on the war.
To me the impact of the Roman upgrades (more on that later) was as huge as the impact of the current upgrades will be to the Romans/Portuguese.

If Carthage says this city gifting-upgrading didn't happen during my war with the Romans, then I'm willing to believe him. But back then I was following the Roman troops carefully and suddenly noticed rifles and machine gunners where the turn before muskets had been.

And for the record, I would have made infantry out of those longbowmen myself. So now it's mech infs instead of normal infantries.
And my army is facing like 90 units, so compared to earlier wars the scale is not that much different. Especially not if you consider that Hungary is catched in a war with 5 nations right now, including the violation of 2 NAP's.
Just saying to advocate that the scale isn't that much different. I'd even say that the scale is against me b/c half my country is already being destroyed by more advanced units of Carthage.

I appreciate the kind tone in which this is discussed. Again, to me this is not a game end. If a reload is needed to keep everybody satisfied then I'll not object to that. I just think that it's not fair that Hungary has been disadvanged by facing more advanced weaponry all the time during all it's many wars, but now we use it ourselves it causes a debate.