Destruction of Foes (DoF) - Diplogame Light

[Carthage (DoF)]

I support the notion of playing this game like a normal diplo game, except for the giving of points for storytelling and diplomacy..

I think the point is that we approach it as a normal diplo-game until 1000 AD so ideas of measured war etc. The key thing being not crippling an opponent so they think 'whats the point anymore'. Taking half the cities would definitely be crippling in my book. Its not pacifist - people should still think that if they let their oponents have twice the soliders they do they are in for invasion - but does mean that even if people lose a war they don't think - "so its all over".

[Robert]

game crashed, it's up again. France: please replay.
I'm sorry for being that unstable lately. I'll try to improve it.

game turns now back to 8 hours.

[Bulgaria (DoF)]

Bulgaria requests longer timer (24 hours?) and maybe a pause as we are at war with Hungary and they seems not to be played. Or we must say finally what the rules say about this - is there need for turn order or not?

Anyway, I do hope that this crisis is going to be resolved soon, but a longer turn timer is needed.

[Egypt (DoF)]

During weartime it's reasonable to ask for a 24h timer and I think using double-move rules should depend on the participants. They should agree whether they use it or not. Egypt would like to have rules against double-moves whenever she is at war.
one kind of agreement could be this:
the first party has the first 12h to play then the second party could move even if the first player missed the turn, but they can also wait more if they can.

[Hungary (DoF)]

Bulgaria: I was at work past day so I had not ready our messages (and I was not aware that you were sending messages to me either, I will check my PM notification settings).
I have answered you now.
There's no need to extend the turn timer. I have no units near your units so you are free to double move.
And I believe that my response will settle the issue anyway.

[Carthage (DoF)]

I think the server went down..

[Carthage (DoF)]

Let me say that I enjoy this game a lot, even at this early stage..

It seems that it is going to be a good one!

Interesting interaction, excellent map.
So far as I can see trade resources have been excellently and fairly distributed..
so thanks Ozzy and DNK!!

[Portugal (DoF)]

I agree, and as long as we can avoid the mire of pauses and reloads we have been stuck with in DoE. The 8 hour timer is great too. Hope we can keep it for ever - war move to 24 other wise keep it fast and fun. Who cares if we all lose the odd bit of building or a unit misses a go. Small price for a fast and fun game. Yes map seems good - not easy but fun and balanced.

[France (DoF)]

well, France and Spain are at war, so a longer turn timer might just be necessary, but don't panic, I promise to make them cry uncle quickly

[France (DoF)]

bit of a philosophical question here.

Spain has gone all testosterony and insists on death rather than submission. it would not be a problem for me to smash them, but that goes against being a good sport in this game. at what point must I restrain myself when they are promising my destruction and eternal hatred? it would be neglectfully incompetent of me to ever let them build an army, and as such I need to smack them down again and again. no problem for me, great for storywriting, but it would result in crippling another civ...

any comments?

[mzprox]

This kind of claims happen too often in diplo-games, the question: is it just an ic threat or an ooc promise. Mostly it is the former, but the measured war rule only works if both the winner and the loser are reasonable.

[Robert]

Time will heal all wounds. The 'we will fight till we are all death" attitude will slowly fade after a couple of days.

[The Priest]

Sounds like an interesting spin, Miss France.

As I understand it, and my IG view is dependent on others and what you have posted so may be wrong, you have attacked you smaller neighbour and seized their third city, leaving them with two. Nothing wrong with war, and I understand you offered them a settler in place etc., though when land is mainly all taken that is little value.

So you have infliced massive damage on them. (no complaint just fact). So doesn't strike me as surprising if this leads to an in-game grudge and vengeance. That is the problem with early surprise 'unjustified' war - attacker gets massive benefit but you get a serious enemy! (by unjustified I am just drawing on what i have seen that there was no 'background' to this war, just your desire to use an advantage in power to seize a city - not meaning there was anything 'wrong' in it).

Yes, the measured war rules put some extra obligations on you, which in one sense are a pain, but tough your the victor and the instigator of the war. You get your extra city and severely weaken your opponent, you can't have everything!

It is possible for a 'loser' to exploit the rules unreasonably - I've seen it happen - but that isn't the same as either not agreeing to peace immediately you have seized their city ( i presume you have done) or swearing they will never trust you again and will enjoy seeing you rot in hell (though as others have said, such feelings ebb, though often like Israel in current game, is a justification for a backstab later - alls fair in love and war). If they want to fight, fight them. If the only way to fight them is to seize another city, so be it, they can't hide behind rules, though you should then offer it back in exchange for peace. But don't expect them to like you! (IG of course, I have always had a grugding respect for those who have attacked me).

[Hungary (DoF)]

Me, Geza of the Hungarians have made a Ultimatum to the Greek.
The Greek have built a city on the Hungarian border, we cannot tollerate that.
Because the Hungarians are a large and strong nations while the Greek are small and tiny we have offered them a settler if they hand the city over at once.

We are not greedy for land, when the Bulgarians approached us we have given them one of our cities and an extra city spot.
We desire peace and friendship with the Greek as well but we cannot allow one of their cities on our border and endless culturall wars forever.

I hope that the Greek will accept our offer and avoid another war.
But otherwise we will next year strike against them.

Geza

[France (DoF)]

@ The Priest

You are incorrect in some of your presuppositions.

First of all, Spain has fewer cities than I, but they have 2 religions and a higher gold production than I do. They have chosen not to settle new cities at any reasonable pace building instead the Oracle which has given them a very early Monarchy. They are not a helpless little civ and they have large happy cities with which to slave troops (or so they claim).

Second of all I have not yet taken the city, but will likely do so on the next turn. Keep in mind that I have offered them a settler in return for their acquiesence but they have refused that offer.

Third, Spain is about twice the size of the lands of France on this map so there should not only be plenty of room to settle, but if Spain works out a good land division with Portugal they should have the number of cities as I will. I am settling the lands I consider vital for my empire, they should do the same closer to home. I suspect the reason they are grabbing that city is because of horses and maybe also Iron.

Fourth, I explicitly told Spain that they should not settle too far north of the Pyrenee mountains. They chose instead to march rather far north, leaving a good city site further south open, which I could have settled effectively blocking their colony off. Instead I decided to tell them to remove themselves, they could still settle north of the Pyrenees, but at another site. I did not attack unprovoked, I warned them that they should not move so far north and they did.

Fifth, Egypt entered my borders without permission I massacred their warrior and bragged about it. This shows the sensibilities of the warlike Gauls. I also have according to Demographics the largest army. All of this is information that Spain should have taken into account when settling. That they settled so far from their established empire that long supply lines makes it near impossible for them to hold the city is also a sign of a civ over-reaching despite warnings. I was not going to allow them to get away with such boldness.


Finally, Spain chose to challenge my claim and now will suffer for it. I was more than willing to work out a peaceful solution yet they blustered and shouted and would not listen to reason, so this is in my opinion not an unfair war, it is the logical consequence of stepping on the toes of a giant.