Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[America (DoE)]

I meant the Axis gave you false hope, so you and Azteca to continue fight Turkey, while the Axis was not able to actually save you from harm. When the Axis fleet was gone, they actually stopped supporting you and left you on the mercy of the Turks.

This is what I meant - that they gave you hope, but it was false hope, as they deserted you later.

Ah, well, that was also not the case; they gave me and the Aztecs armies to fight the Turks, but it was logistically quite the challenge to get everything there in time, and it turned out to be too late for the Aztecs (in the second war). And America was also never really maimed, due to the help of the Aztecs and the Axis; America still has all its cities. The Axis was great in the first war with the Turks; without their support and that of the Aztecs, I would have been toast

[Russia (DoE)]

If anybody had a feeling that there was a stalemate, or that it was futile to try anything due to the Russian alliance, then in my opinion all this could have probably been solved by writing one friendly and joking PM to Russia saying, hey man, you wanna hatch a crazy plan together to turn the whole world upside down and create some awesome stories? From what I've seen so far, I think Russia would be just the kind of player who would go, 'awesome, let's do it'. And that is what I consider perfect diplogaming.

Hah! Sorry I read down your message and stop to write answers at paragraphs. And thank you for this last paragraph. In fact, I can play by all rules and expectations. I just need to know the rules. If 3 top nations (Neandor, France and Vikings) can form a rock solid alliance and use their military power, why would I be restricted to not create a block to oppose them? When the ruined economies of my allies England and Turkey had like 200 GPT each and only Vikings had like 800 GPT and were headed to MGs, cannons, ironclads and other military techs to outgun us, I did researched Communism so I can repeat the Communist revolution and Krasnaia Armia victory over the Nazi Germany. And when all hope was almost gone that the Great War can be won by sheer power, I ended it with a bluff. Neat, eh? And when the whole world was laying at my mercy, did I lost control and become unreasonable with demands? Did I crippled my hatred enemies? No. I sticked to my roleplay - I needed just the justice restored. Even the Neandor King in a PM to me acknowledged that it was fair and just.

But well - Russia is still guilty for not being weakling and must be bashed about it.

[Russia (DoE)]

Ah, well, that was also not the case; they gave me and the Aztecs armies to fight the Turks, but it was logistically quite the challenge to get everything there in time, and it turned out to be too late for the Aztecs (in the second war). And America was also never really maimed, due to the help of the Aztecs and the Axis; America still has all its cities. The Axis was great in the first war with the Turks; without their support and that of the Aztecs, I would have been toast

One more misconcept in the game. It was me who asked the Turks to return your cities and withdraw. With all the shiny toys the Axis gave you, you still was going to lose Washington and if the Turks wanted, they would have kept your cities. If you and the Azteca had enough armies to fight the Turks, why at the end you gave up?

[America (DoE)]

One more misconcept in the game. It was me who asked the Turks to return your cities and withdraw. With all the shiny toys the Axis gave you, you still was going to lose Washington and if the Turks wanted, they would have kept your cities. If you and the Azteca had enough armies to fight the Turks, why at the end you gave up?

Ah, no I know that, you even stated that publicly, but without the threat of Aztec, French, German and Viking armies in the first war, I would have been completely defenseless, also diplomatically. It was a combination of your involvement and the help I got from the Axis that stopped that war in its tracks; suddenly the stakes were much too high for a simple land grab.

In the second war, the armies I got from the Axis arrived two turns before the game was put on the pause that it is still on now. I had to make peace with the Ottoman in order to protect Havana, as at that point, I did not know that the Axis were sending reinforcements.

[Russia (DoE)]

Oh, good that at least you give me credit for stopping the First Central American war. Because the Azteca still deny this to me and accuses me as instigator of the war. You are right however, that the world raising voice and the Axis fleet appearing in the Caribbean had their part of the peace Turkey wanted some "green land" to themselves, as after being a victor in the Great War, have suffered and invested so much in the war, they were still limited to 5 sea based, yellow land surrounded cities in Europe and 3 dusty desert villages size 1 in North Africa. How could I say "no" to them? I just asked them to be careful and not too greedy and cruel when attacking you. Also, we believed the Azteca threat to Africa was absolutely real - we was seeing a lot of Axis navy going forth and back from Europe and we suspected something is boiling and Turkey decided to act first. As it turned now it was that the Axis was preparing attack on the Inca instead But still, we were 1 step ahead drawing all the attention of the Axis in the Carribean. Plus their fleet. And we had plans of destroying it somehow, as it was still bigger and mightier than anything our block could muster. And at the end we did succeeded in this too

To me, this is what I see as the main thing about the Diplo-gaming - not only the individual players have conscience. The world have conscience. In a normal MP game the world would stay silent and only look after their own interests, while in the game even the biggest world Superpower have to care for the world opinion.

[Inca (DoE)]

eh, even in the "AAR" I get no love for playing brinkmanship with the Turks over America... I'm probably still paying for all that now, and certainly will be in the future if the game restarts. Pointless? I suppose so, along with whatever other behind-the-scenes stuff I did to help others.

[Calanthian]

Oh, good that at least you give me credit for stopping the First Central American war. Because the Azteca still deny this to me and accuses me as instigator of the war.

This was all IC communication.. OOC I was not sure but actually that didn't matter at that point

It was clear that the troops came from someone else as the Ottomans hadn't discovered Riffling
(in fact I think they still haven't)

[Russia (DoE)]

This was all IC communication.. OOC I was not sure but actually that didn't matter at that point

It was clear that the troops came from someone else as the Ottomans hadn't discovered Riffling
(in fact I think they still haven't)

Oh, this is flawed argument from the nation, who never teched Astronomy but had 40+ frigates and SOTLs gifted from France, who also never teched Astronomy

[Russia (DoE)]

Not to mention that you asked me to supply you with fleet and 30+ advanced troops to conquer the helpless Zulu.

[Calanthian]

I didn't say it wasn't allowed or something, I just concluded that they had to come from elsewhere..

Furthermore I also acknowledge that you played a great game.

Also I am not complaining about the treatment I got in game: I sure as hell didn't give you another option then to take me out.
Perhaps strange, but for me, in the game position I was this was the path of the most fun

[Inca (DoE)]

In all fairness, someone should have conquered them a long time ago and put them out of their misery...

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Well Ottoman you are wrong. Your response to my post was a clever attempt to claim some 'special knowledge' and attack the person not the argument. Shame you didn't respond to what I actually said.

Sorry The Priest You are absolutely right, when I looked back at my response to you there was no substance at all, just just me asserting that I "read all the old Ottoman PMs", weak argument I agree. I'd had my nightcap by then and I tend to be long winded so I just cut off my response without adding the substance. So again, sorry about that

So, very quickly, one of the things I noticed, was that you were fine with the very aggressive, opportunistic, very un-gentlemanly razing of Israel's Holy City, their 2nd city in the game (which I ageed with totally BTW... It was Grrrrrreat as Tony the Tiger says). BUT... This was a total violation of your "gentleman code" nonsense and it was an action that I had to spend half my play-time in this game suffering the consequences of, precisely because of how ungentlemanly Israel regarded it. I mean RP tried hard to seperate his OOC feelings from his IC ones, but it was obvious that he was mixing the two and it was obvious that he felt very ill-used about it.

But then there was some issue where IIRC either it was France and Neandor ganking you, or maybe it was when France founded Venetti, I forget which, maybe both... And Oh how the tables were turned in that one. So much whining! So much complaining! Whining to the host, whining on the threads, complaining to everyone about how the diplo spirit or whatever was being violated and how unfair it was to you etc., etc.,

And that was the argument I failed to make. You might remember it differently, but you are biased because its you we are talking about. As an objective observer coming in to sub, reading your PMs, I noticed a stark contradiction between how you applied the gentleman code thing, depending on whether it was to YOUR advantage.

Again, I know we don't agree on this issue, but you at least deserved to hear where I was getting my argument from. Sorry that I didnt post it before as I should have

[Inca (DoE)]

Less personal arguments, more how-are-we-getting-this-game-rolling-or-ended arguments. I'm fine with:

1. restarting with random civ switching (with a few automatically set to AI like Zulu and Aztec)
2. starting a new one
3. playing on, switching whoever needs it to AI and getting subs for whoever we can (I'm done subbing Zulu, as there really is jack to do and it's a pointless waste of time as an AI could do what I'm doing right now)
4. playing on, etc, plus we reset all diplo agreements

5. doing any of the above, plus experimenting with some new rules as mentioned in the other thread (we can get them worked out on a game that's already almost dead so there's not much risk if some don't work out)

And, yes, I've been subbing for Zulu (properly, don't worry Otts). I built some windmills. It was a blast. Their terrain is total crap, I am not much of a quitter, but I wouldn't have followed through to the end with that start either.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Very well said. But the problem is that many of the players dont think so. They are either want to be independent or they want to be powerful or they dont have fun.

Exactly, which is why I said, the MAIN problem is simple plain sore-losers. If you can only have fun when you are powerful or winning then you are lame , and you will rarely make it to the end in a game, unless you are the best player in the game, and there can be only one of those.

You have to be willing to adapt and have fun regardless of the situation. In this game, America was a Master at this, probably the best. America was so fluid in his ability to change his allegiances or just do the minimum needed to pacify an aggressor. That's why despite being outmanned and Outgunned, America's nation remained intact, while Azteca was obliterated.

America got the whole Superpower, Pawn, Fodder concept, and played it expertly (not to mention being an amazing storyteller). When Turkey attacked, America quickly said, well I'm not a Superpower, so I better become a Pawn quick,!... and it worked... Turkey was forced out. When Turkey attacked again, America quickly said, Oh well the old Pawn relationship has dried up, better form a new one fast, and just moved on to the next one. That's why America still as all his cities.

A diplogame in which you constantly have to take care not to have anyone grow to powerful and everybody should remain equal, well, that sounds a bit boring I think... To me the discussions about realism, balance, score, alliances...I think it all kinda misses the point.

I agree, it would be boring. Players always complain when the game is too peaceful and balanced, about how boring it is. The No Score mod will help alot with this, especially civs obsessing about score and "top" civs allying with each other. With no score (theoretically) it would be harder to truly determine who is a Top Civ. Ideally, the whole discussion would go away, and people would just focus on the diplomacy score. But then again, it might make people obssess about MP-style rank even more, because then there would be NO objective way to measure who was ahead. So then we would argue endlessly about who was truly "winning," pointing to # of cities, military size, techs etc.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

eh, even in the "AAR" I get no love for playing brinkmanship with the Turks over America...

Don't worry Inca, Turkey gets no love for the "Fear Factor" that benefitted our outnumbered, out-teched, alliance so well. England mentioned a while back that alot of Axis (and the Axis friends) despair was based on overblown FEAR of the might of the Allies. I like to think Turkey had alot to do with that. I like to think that a big part of the reason Vikings bought that empty threat to raze their Holy City is because Turkey had developed a reputation for our alliance as the dreaded Raze-Attack-From-The-Sea guys. I put alot of thought and work into building this mystique, but alas, I get called a "mechanics manipulator" instead of an "@ss kicker"... I guess that's how it goes

I sure as hell didn't give you another option then to take me out... Perhaps strange, but for me, in the game position I was this was the path of the most fun

A perfect example of a civ choosing to be Fodder, because it would be fun for them. That's why you are OK with it and not whining about it, because you knew that's what you were doing and wanted to go out in a blaze of glory.

In all fairness, someone should have conquered them a long time ago and put them out of their misery...

Yea, in future games, we need a mechanism to vote abandoned civs off the island