Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[America (DoE)]

*sits in a corner, rocking back and forth, looking up*

...please don't raze my capital, please don't raze my capital, please don't raze my capital...



PS Ottomans, sorry about talking about the terms, I thought it would be important for the reload, but I should have kept them private for the game's sake now that I'm reading the conversation. My bad. Damn Americains

[Russia (DoE)]

By logging second in the previous turn, the Azteca spoiled his right to DOW and moving first in the next turn. Simple as that. If the Ottomans have played before the Aztecs as they should then the outcome would been absolutely different. It is not about how the Aztecs was going to capture Miami even without loging in after the Ottomans in the previous turn - no one is accusing them of moving unfair. It is only that by loging in second they lose the right to declare war and move before the Ottomans. This is what have to be undone.

Of course Robert will decide, we are only chatting the possible solutions and the outcome and everyone is saying his point of view. Normally, everyone will present his plead and then Robert will do the judge

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

One more thing and then I let it rest as I have to go to sleep

Ozzy says there was no harm in the hours of pre-planning. But that is subjective. He says there was no harm, I say there was. There can be disagreement on that, and there is no way to prove either. The only thing that can be proven is the log. And the log clearly shows that no rules were broken in prior turn but rules were broken in current turn. So current turn should be reloaded.

Now I let it rest and let host decide.

[Aztecs (DoE)]

Our positions are both clear.
Let it rest, and let Robert decide..

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

But what Ozzy said was not correct. He says violation occured in previous turn. That is not correct. There was no violation in the previous turn. He overlooks that the violation was when Aztec DoW first, not when they logged in second. Reloading selectively to undo that is the same as treating second login as a mistake and then forgiving Aztec mistake of login. If Aztec is mistake is forgiven then Turkey mistake should be forgiven too, or else its not fair. This is what rules say:

02. Rule Breaking
When rules are being broken the game will be reloaded. The host can reload immediately when a breaking of a rule is obvious. If it's not obvious to everyone the game will be paused (again) and conflict handling will be effectuated.

Notice that the reload occurs WHEN a rule is broken. Not the turn before. In this case, the "When" is the current turn. The rule was broken when Aztec DoW Turkey. That happened THIS turn. So the reload must occur THIS turn because that was WHEN the rule was broken. So the reload should be limited to WHEN the rule was broken, NOT to retroactively juggle the turn order by reloading to the turn before, especially when no rules whatsoever were broken the turn before.

Also, there is no rule that says when there is a reload, all parties must play the same way they did or try to imitate their moves prior to reload. I have played in games where this was in the rules, but here there is no such rule. Consequently, if there is a reload to fix Aztec mistake, the rules allow me to fix mine as well, and I would request a pause in order to do so.

[Aztecs (DoE)]

@Ottoman:

Ozzy said all which can be said about this..

Turn 1
Aztec move
Ottoman move
RELOAD

Turn 2
Aztec move, declare war, capture Miami
Ottoman move

Yea, that's the only sensible way of doing it. That is where the violation occurred and that is what needs to be fixed.

Sorry Ottomans, but there is no advantage the Aztecs got by getting information a few hours early. It doesn't take hours and hours to plot out an attack like that. There really is no benefit or advantage and there is no need or reason to undo that. The one and only legitimate concern is that they might have moved a unit after you on Turn 1 and gotten a strategic advantage that way. Peaking at the map does absolutely nothing.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Yea, that's the only sensible way of doing it. That is where the violation occurred and that is what needs to be fixed.

Sorry Ottomans, but there is no advantage the Aztecs got by getting information a few hours early. It doesn't take hours and hours to plot out an attack like that. There really is no benefit or advantage and there is no need or reason to undo that. The one and only legitimate concern is that they might have moved a unit after you on Turn 1 and gotten a strategic advantage that way. Peaking at the map does absolutely nothing.

I can't see any possible other spot to reload from. What are you proposing?

The violation, as Russia correctly says was when Aztec DoW Turkey, NOT when Aztec logged in on prior turn. Aztec should have to play the turn order with their mistake in place, rather than getting to undo it via reload.

What I propose, is that Aztec mistake is not undone, nor is Turkey mistake of misclick to unload Galleons undone. I propose that the current turn be reloaded from the beginning. That way, both parties are stuck with their mistakes, and both parties have the benefit of foreknowledge of what is to come.

An alternative proposal, is that if we reload from previous turn to retoactively give Aztecs the first move in current turn, thereby undoing Aztec mistake, but then game is paused following reload, and Turkey is allowed to unload Galleons as intended. That way both parties mistakes are undone, and both benefit from the foreknowledge that everyone has, and Aztecs can still move first and attack first if they wish. Instead of only Aztecs being allowed to undo their mistake but then benefitting from foreknowledge, while Turkey is stuck with their mistake, both mistakes are undone. Those are the only fair solutions.

Solution 1:

Turn 1
Aztec login
Turkey login
Aztec login
---------New Turn

Turn 2
Aztec login and DoW (violation)

RELOAD Turn 2
Turkey login
Aztec login and DoW

OR

Solution 2:

Turn 1
Aztec login
Turkey login
Aztec login
---------New Turn

Turn 2
Aztec login and DoW (violation)

RELOAD Turn 1

Turkey login
---------New Turn
Aztec login and DoW

Or

Solution 1.1

Turn 1
Aztec login
Turkey login
Aztec login
---------New Turn
Turn 2
Aztec login and DoW (violation)

RELOAD Turn 2

Aztec login (no DoW allowed)
Turkey login
---------New Turn
Aztec login and DoW
Turkey login

[Russia (DoE)]

The Ottomans are absolutely right here - the second login of the Aztecs isnt violation of any rule, so it does not have to be undone. The only rule violation is their DOW before the Ottomans move.

On another hand, the Ottomans knowing that the Aztec attack is coming will have opportunity to react and change the outcome.

As you all know, Russia prefers the diplomatic solutions and compromises, so in this case one good solution would be the turn to be reloaded after the Ottomans played in the turn before the DOW and in the meantime a peace is signed between the AztecsAmericans and Turkey. No bad feelings, no ships sunk, no razed capitols. Exactly the way Russia likes to see the things end. What more would one desire?

The Ottomans will learn a lesson to double-check the clumsy unload buttons and the Azteca will learn to be careful about turn order when going at war and everyone should be happy

[OzzyKP]

Yes this is what happened. And yes that is a crappy rule: as this would solve it:


Turn 1
Aztec move
Ottoman move
RELOAD

Turn 2
Aztec move, declare war, capture Miami
Ottoman move

Yea, that's the only sensible way of doing it. That is where the violation occurred and that is what needs to be fixed.

Sorry Ottomans, but there is no advantage the Aztecs got by getting information a few hours early. It doesn't take hours and hours to plot out an attack like that. There really is no benefit or advantage and there is no need or reason to undo that. The one and only legitimate concern is that they might have moved a unit after you on Turn 1 and gotten a strategic advantage that way. Peaking at the map does absolutely nothing.

I can't see any possible other spot to reload from. What are you proposing?

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

Think of it this way. If I happened to be up when Aztec moved this turn and I noticed him online, and realized what was goint to happen, and I quickly logged in, saw the DoW, and buzzed him in-game to say "Hey Buddy! You are getting ready to break rules!" Aztec would say "No-siree Im not!" and I would say "Yeah-huh you are! You have to move after me cause you logged in last on prior turn."

Then we would pause the game for a ruling, and what would happen I ask? Aztec gets the prior turn reloaded to undo his prior login to retroactively give him first move?!? No way... The ruling would be, Aztec you have to wait for Turkey to move before you can DoW. Make a cease fire and wait for Turkey to move, then you can DoW and do your move. Then no reload would even be needed, we would just play from the beginning of the turn. That is exactly what we should do here... play from the beginning of the turn.

Of course Aztec are willing to reload to before they did the second login. They have all the info they need already. They get the benefit of early info/extra planning time from the early log-in. Reloading to before they re-logged in would not change this, AND it would enable them to benefit from it. Aztec logged in after me because they couldnt resist getting the info early, because they realized the value of this info in planning their tactics for next turn.

Now it is too late, Aztecs have had the extra time from last turn plus all of this turn to plan their tactics. That can not be undone. The only fair thing to do is let them keep their early info, but let me get the first move that I am entitled to under the rules.

Another example... If I log in right now and raze Washington, a reload would be given without question if America requested it, simply based on the fact that America hasnt moved and I am supposed to go after them not before. It would not matter one iota for me to say "That city is getting razed anyway, no matter that America moves first." And if I said "OK reload back 2 turns to when the war started so I can move first in the turn and thus have first move", nobody would agree with that. Everyone would agree that the reload should be limited to my illegal move, not to retroactively give me first move. Nobody would even argue this so why the argument now?

As I said, this has been strictly enforced on me in past wars and I whined about it to the other player but then accepted it without asking for a host ruling or a selective reload. I am now just asking we strictly enforcing the same rule.

[Ottoman Empire (DoE)]

That does seem better, if the Ottomans agree with that as well.

No, I do not agree. As I said before, Aztec logging in after me was not against the rules. The only thing that was against the rules was Aztec DoW on Ottomans the next turn BEFORE I had taken my turn. So I maintain that this is the ONLY thing that needs to be undone. The current turn should be reloaded. Aztec can then move first if they want, they just cant move first AND DoW.

Under your proposal the Aztec mistake would be selectively corrected while I would have to swallow mine. Cant accept that, sorry.

Also, I cant confirm the terms on the table since we dont know whether Washington is getting razed or not which will depend on the reload and Aztec actions after, etc... I'm sure that will drastically affect everyones willingness to make terms. Also, I sent all my terms in private and IC I will keep it that way. America is making the terms public for some great IC reasons

[Aztecs (DoE)]

@ Russia: in the story thread there's a quote from the sultan:

Notice to All Nations:

The Sultan has authorized an offer of unconditional peace to America. Following their acceptance, he will have a formal statement issued. This will contain all the relevant information concerning this conflict. The Sultan appreciates the patience, of the international community as he proceeded with his wedding, as well as all the gifts and well wishes he has recieved during his joyous occasion.

Taner, High Messenger to the Sultan

[America (DoE)]

Unconditional surrender

That is what I call U-turn of the war course in a second

Well, not really; there was a lot of talk behind the scenes And in this case surrender means, not surrender but treaty, sorry, bad choice of words. So, it means the Ottomans will be allowed to retreat, but will have to give up the cities they took. Not so much a u-turn, but just simply a failed conquest.

Yes this is what happened. And yes that is a crappy rule: as this would solve it:


Turn 1
Aztec move
Ottoman move
RELOAD

Turn 2
Aztec move, declare war, capture Miami
Ottoman move

That does seem better, if the Ottomans agree with that as well.

[Aztecs (DoE)]

So... just trying to parse all the back and forth... is this what happened?

Turn 1
Aztec move
Ottoman move
Aztec login to look around

Turn 2
Aztec move, declare war, capture Miami
Ottoman move

If this is what happened then... sorry Aztec, that is against the rules. Since there is no way to prove you just looked around, it counts as a double move. It sucks, I know. I never liked this rule, but it is too late to change it now.

Yes this is what happened. And yes that is a crappy rule: as this would solve it:


Turn 1
Aztec move
Ottoman move
RELOAD

Turn 2
Aztec move, declare war, capture Miami
Ottoman move

[Russia (DoE)]

Unconditional surrender

That is what I call U-turn of the war course in a second