Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread]

[Inca (DoE)]

To add to Russia. Yes, I'd love to see us continue the game for 15T and have the Axis immediately invade Russia and take/raze some cities and see how this one-sidedness plays out. I believe Russia when they say it will be a one-sided catastrophe. If we do restart the game, I think given all the stuff that's already been said, it's only fair to claim Russia the winner and consider the further play as just "fun" to see how it would've ended otherwise (and for more stories and just to continue).

To add more, I was basically in the process of signing a long-term resource/partnership deal with Neandor when he up and quit, due to issues with the Turks and lack of support for my resource needs in the alliance. I wasn't likely to ever go against Russia or directly attack Turkey (well, not alone against their main force), but I was hardly solidly and totally in Russia-Turkey's alliance, and Turkey chaffed me fairly badly throughout the period, and we barely talked for the first half of the inter-war period, and things were breaking down again lately over Petrolla. I think it was likely I'd have become properly neutral, dependent on Axis-Arabia resources and deals, although never likely to be quite as supportive as with Russia, and never breaking from England, which would have kept me firmly in the middle.

And I'm aware that I was extremely vulnerable for this entire game, Viks, and that's a reason I started building up once I properly joined the Russian alliance. I also have no doubt that you and France would've succeeded in screwing me up badly had you wanted to. It's quite easy to do so with my position. I meant that "the Indians were the only ones to threaten me" as an IC issue not an OOC issue. I've been concerned for a long, long time about that, especially during that NAP phase I was outright paranoid over it, although none of that was public (until now). Good to know it wasn't unfounded

[Robert]

Thinking again about Persia/Russia in DoC,
what happened between Persia/Russia in DoC is about an exact replica of what happened to Israel/Turkey in DoE
Except that I was in the opposite situation (and that I was nicer towards my enemy, but I think that my point about me being nicer was already clear if it's true is of course another question )

[Robert]

Kudos btw for England for NOT quiting despite losing half their empire.
Same for civs like America, Natives, India, Mali, for continue to play despite never be a big civ or be important.
That's the spirit!

[Robert]

For the record, despite all the things that went wrong I do still love this game. It has everything, brutal wars, ooc drama, big alliances, on all continents.'

It was at most a bit unballanced
But that's not bad at all for a change.

[Robert]

My response after skimming through all messages since yesterday;
First of all: my IRL changes were the worst; I got a new daughter and a new job that both consumed most of my time!

2nd; the entire "Neandor/Viking/Aztec city gifting unit gifting defense pact" move is at least as much an abuse of game mechanics as the sink the entire fleet move. At least. I'm sorry to say that b/c I like the Neandor player a lot and he's one of the last players I would like to drift away from, but that's the only logical conclusion I could make.
In these games we should not make in-game defense pacts anyway, which has been said many times before. I also dislike the city gifting for upgrading purposes a lot. I can only applaud the Russian/Ottoman sub-party for finding an inventive way to counter it.

Regarding the Russian/Ottoman dominance, first of all, like the Viking player already said, it's absolutely a sign of their diplomatic skills and their in-game skills. Well played.

That doesn't mean that the complains about Russia having little understanding for the smaller nations they crushed aren't valid.
The entire 'balanced war' and 'let everybody have their fun' rules are complex, especially b/c they're hard to literally explain or enforce. It's hard to debate them.
But Russia/Ottomans should realise that if this complaint comes from about every other player in this game, there may be some merrit in the claim. Maybe Russia/Ottomans shouldn't reject the claim that easily.
Being the most powerfull civ comes with responsbilities in diplogaming.
I am not a neutral observer here b/c I'm also a part of this game and my civ has also been squeezed by the Russian/Ottoman alliance, so my word here is not the final word, but that's what I'd like to advise to Russia/Ottomans: please reconsider your opinion there.

Few people may not know that I am Israel.
Israel remained isolationistic during the entire game. We had a brief alliance with France/Neandor, where Israel only wanted to use these civs as a tool to get revenge on the Ottomans. For the rest of the game we traded with everybody (in character choice) while we did not allie ourselves to anybody (in character choice).

LzPrst wrote about a former game where Persia (moi) took the 2nd city of the Russians (lzprst) which had an impact for Russia for the rest of the game.
The interesting thing now was that my position was in opposition of that game.

Now I was the civ that opportunisticly placed my city on the strategic point and now my enemy was the player who took that city.
I could only applaud that move b/c that was exactly what I had done in earlier games. It was a very brutal move, especially b/c it also was my holy city. But it was legal and I begged for it by placing Jerusalem exactly there.

Now I was the player who had this vendetta for the rest of the game against the cruel (ic) other player!

I'd say though that I think (subjective) that I was taking more responsibilities towards the Russians though in that former game.
The Russians back then attacked me several times, including cruel backstabbings, as well! (one time they declared war on me while I was moving with my entire army through their territory to help a friend on their other border. They were not involved but DoW'ed me when I was in their territory, then my units were moved (game mechanic) and slaughtered by the Russians. I could recover and win that war only b/c I was big enough to outslave the Russians on the long term.

There were more wars, but never again did I take more from the Russians. And I did certainly not pull more civs into my struggle against the Russians. I tried to help them by offering them new islands and by helping them to expand. Of course nothing could undo my first and major blow to them. I had crippled their civ by taking their 2nd city.
But that was a legal move, it was never challenged by Russia. Just like the Turks taking Jerusalem was never challenged during this game by me.

But it's hard to see that while I in a former game as the more powerfull civ did not continue to cripple Russia, despite them backstabbing me and attacking me several times, this did happen to me in this same situation.

When I backstabbed the Turks (very much in character and very much hinted upon and not as a suprise to anybody) they got back on me with help of the Russians, Arabians, Mali and the Zulu. As a minor nation I had to battle on all borders. And all my peace offers were rejecting, including handing over Tel Aviv, the 100gpt generating 2nd holy city of my little empire.
After some naughty ooc debates Russia and me were able to settle it reasonably after all, and kudos to Russia for that. But I can see how many players think that Russia/Ottomans were to harsh on the smaller civs.

I've always been a hater towards game-long alliances, but well... I'm known for backstabbing my allies anyway. (Persia anyone? )

But in the end it's only a game. Quiting is not a solution.
You're in it for the entire game when you sign up, that's my opinion.
(unless their RL issues you can't combine with the game, but even then playing your turns at least and answering diplo msg is the least you can do).

Some players have a habbit of quiting when they're losing or losing interest after a while.
I'm in this community for 5 years and I can tell exactly which players will stop when. It's sad that I'm usually right. There are players here who never finished a game. Some of them are among the best diplo players or story tellers. I fear that when you have quited a game once, you'll quit all of them. Exception is The Priest who stopped playing during this game b/c of RL issues. That had nothing to do with losing.

Anyway, we can only finish this game if all players want to return.
(or at least most of them).

To Russia I'd like to say: You're a nice guy, even while you're accused of everything you stay polite and keep a smile on your face. You're definitely not in this game to destroy it for the others, but please listen a bit to the complains your enemies voice. You do imho lack a bit the attitude of grace and mercy for those you are beating. It's a complaint almost all diplo in-game winners have received (The English player got it, the Viking player got it. I think that only the Neandor player and later mzprox were able to be both a winner and showing some mercy).

To Vikings/Neandors: Pls re-consider if you really want to "not finish" yet another game
I think it's not over yet.

To all: maybe it's the right moment to sack all alliances and see what happens if we all start blanco again. (and maybe find new allies)
That may cause quiet an interesting end-game!

[Russia (DoE)]

We are even not called the game and so much interesting possible scenarios came out on the surface, that makes me mad at you all guys who quit I can only imagine what will come out if we call the game and start an AAR.

It was far from decided game - it was not ruined game till you decided to quit - understand it. And live with the knowledge you have ruined a GREAT game.

[Russia (DoE)]

A lot of things are decided not by the actual things themselves, but by the perception of things.

Here you are right. We played as a winners and we have won. The Axis played just not to lose and at the end they have lost their nerves. Let me tell you something REAL: right now, if the Neandors just move the army they have in Nordica and attack me, I cant stop them. They will capture St.Peteresburg, they will march in Moscow. And I cant stop them. But you guys prefer to whine instead of playing the game. But dont try to explain to us how unbalanced the game was. It was absolutely winnable by the Axis by all means. You just got scared from the tiny Cat and quit,giving up the fight

Not to mention the post-2-big-alliances period.

[Vikings (DoE)]

Do realize our relations: you were the only nation to hint at threatening my territories (ever in the entire game)

If the Turks had not attacked the Americans and Aztecs when they did...well, uh, France and I were putting together a two prong task force to attack your shores. After the end of the Great War and the treaty you were the only Russian ally that we could touch. Our intent was that we would take a few cities and then ask the world powers for some of the cities we lost in the treaty, such as Guardaia, and for some of India's cities to go back to them if we gave you back your cities. France KNEW that there was oil underneath Guardaia, even before I had researched scientific method, because of Russia's insistence that the city go to the Turks.

That all went away when the Turks attacked though and we sent our forces off to help the victims instead. As it turned out we probably should have just attacked you.

On me being an unswayable puppet: ask Neandor about that conclusion. You might get an interesting response…

He never relayed any of that to me. I know he was drafting something to ask the English what it would take to join us, but I don't know if he ever sent it. It was during the time the game was paused for such a long while so he might have forgotten to send it.

[Russia (DoE)]

The unified front was simply too much. A lot of things are decided not by the actual things themselves, but by the perception of things. If there had ever been any doubt in the minds of the axis of the unity of the Russian alliance they would undoubtedly have continued.

Hahahah... I dont know if you truly believe all you say, or you continue to write excuses why you quit (more to yourself, as you cant get my sympathy for quitting without a RL reason), but if this is your real thinking, let me say something to you: you dont understand fundamental concepts about the politics: The "Russian" block would have stayed solid as long as there was a "Neander" block. How you can imagine we simply start fighting among ourselves if just outside our borders there are 3 armed to the teeth nations, who ever since the end of the Great War was arming and preparing for the next one? Because, contrary to the popular belief, we did not crushed the Axis in the Great War. When the war ended, the Axis had MORE units and BETTER military techs than us and those armies were not going to disappear magically. How would we just dislodge our alliance if the Axis stayed united, expanded (Azteca, USA, Arabia, India) and preparing to take their revenge? Pure nonsense. Our allaince would have stayed stable as long as there was the Axis well and alive.

But when the time came, instead of fighting us and defeating us (yes, the Axis still have bigger or at least equal army to ours - fuсk, I have no more than 20 infantries in Europe while only the Neandors have 50 + some 20 MGs ) the Axis decides to just give up the fight and quit. How pathetic. You guys never actually tried attacking me. Maybe you were so scared of me - being of my IC behavior or my play strength, but this is a fact - NEVER EVER IN THIS GAME AN ENEMY SOLDIER PUT FOOT ON RUSSIAN TERRITORY! WTF? How you expect to win if you stay in deaf defense? With whining? Well, you got your win - you ruined the game, but how convenient to put the blame on me...

If there had been hints towards it, PM's, tentative outreaches, clues in diplo posts, anything at all to signalize that the Russian bloc was not a borg hive collective, things may well have kept on running.

Oh, dear... The Inca criticized me so many times - in public, in posts... What to say about them criticizing the Turks? The Inca was on the edge of attacking Turkey in the Caribbean crisis. In fact, trough the whole game I had to play the peacemaker, so those two dont fight each-other - Turkey and Inca had absolutely different vision and they have quarreled so many times... I had to find a way to balance the things out.

So you saying that if there was the slightest chance you guys to win and saying if there was indication our block is not rock - solid, then you would continue the game, this is just ridiculous and reminds me of one joke I heard back in the time. Let me tell you this funny story

So: A policeman stops a young attractive girl for high speed driving. He says the fine is 100 dollars, but she complains that she dont have so much money right now and proposes he to come later in her home and she will give him the 100 dollars. The traffic policeman accepts. In the night, he comes at the girl's home and she opens the door naked and making lustful movements. She asks: "Oh, so you came to take the 100 dollars, cant we settle this other way?" The cop says: "Give me the 100 dollars" The girl is disappointed, gives the policeman 100 dollars and he leaves. Once he is outside her apartment, he bows down, looks trough the keyhole at the beautiful naked girl as she walks away and says to himself: "Oh, if only she gave me a reason, I would have screwed the hell out of her."

So yes, if we only gave you a hint we are not that stable alliance, you guys would have stayed in the game and play as a men.

[Robert]

Oh and what was going on in my RL when I was getting backstabed by Israel and crushed by France? What have I gone through in the last 12 months? Both my parents died of cancer, I lost a job and failed a licensing exam... but this game has been great, and so through all that I did not quit or give up or say "It's not fun anymore because I'm losing"

So yea I can sympathize with England and say, this whining and quitting is the poor sportsmanship, not anything we did.

First things first: I'm sorry to hear that your parents died last year!
I hope you're ok, my condoleances.

You got a job already? (now we at least now how you could find the time to post that many good stories )

[Inca (DoE)]

A note on my issues: defending myself in this game is near-impossible with that 16-move destroyer crap we added for ocean tiles. I'm playing a two/three-front war in DoF right now, with like 5-6 turns of movement between them, and still find that a far less precarious situation than South America in this game. It would've taken 30+ aircraft just to give me 1 turn advanced notice on losing basically all my cities. I had 2 real cities that weren't on the coast, easily captured without warning. Plus even with railroads it still takes like 3 turns to get troops from one end of my land to the other... Simply put, I was never in a secure enough position to be aggressive. My late-game gambit at getting nukes was born of necessity, as I have no other way to defend myself without them really against oil-based navies.

On me being an unswayable puppet: ask Neandor about that conclusion. You might get an interesting response…

On me looming over the Aztecs: I never had any designs on territorial expansion or aggressive wars. I kept to that the entire game, as dull as it made it. I know, still, I was looming.

[Inca (DoE)]

lzpriest, the problem was that Japan and China from my position were a fairly solid block (I was unaware of the local nuances, I guess), and my #1 priority in this game has been security (although it’s been overridden by other factors regularly). I figured early on that Japan wasn’t going to split from China. This had certainly hurt you in this game, and I apologize (and for whatever I’ve said in this thread).

I said that a large part of my orientation was based on PMs, and I know you put in some effort to get me to join you, but in that case it really was an issue of trying to keep on good terms with the powerful civs that could have balanced against the Europeans. I was not very concerned with your nation’s issues (other than when you helped Japan attack England), and for me China wasn’t something to be balanced against but to be used to balance other powers that I had dealings with. We came at China from two totally different sides: I was fine with the status quo and wanted to maintain solid relations with Japan, my real threat to my Pacific holdings, while helping to keep a “third bloc”; you needed someone to counter China’s land might (which I didn’t care about as they were solidly uninterested in expanding into the sea). Japan was always my primary interest, and at least keeping them on good terms was key. I also made a IC decision to make you guys a bit of an enemy for a bit when we had a chance at that and I was still wasn’t severely concerned with power balancing and more interested in story-telling.

I mean, I was interested in China as a counterweight against ACE and Russia (not that I wanted bloodshed, but just so I wasn’t perpetually stuck in the Russosphere, as nice as it was, it was quite limiting in options and enjoyability to be a perpetual support state for a couple others), but I was militarily and security-wise only interested in Japan really. China was an afterthought in that respect, and as such they never got any military support or anything from me until the end when no one was there to decline it.

Do realize our relations: you were the only nation to hint at threatening my territories (ever in the entire game) when the others made no issues of it, and you were for the longest time the only nation to keep its borders closed with me (or ask for payment for OB). Perhaps I was unaware of the switch to a new player (I was), so it’s not all your fault likely. I never did understand your issues over New Zealand, although maybe by now I’ve just forgotten them, it just seemed like a lot of saber rattling. Those territories were always in a most precarious position (I think they have 5 total defenders right now still). It was a part IC reason and part OOC for long-term stability. I didn’t need to deal with Europe’s crazy politics AND crazy Pacific politics, plus whatever spilled over into the Americas (a lot in the end).

Everyone complains about the static nature of the two-alliance game, forgetting there were actually 3, just one of them was mostly inactive outside of its region (as it hadn’t expanded further and wasn’t buying cities halfway across the world). I was committed to retaining that third bloc so the game wouldn’t be just the 2, and up until your actions China certainly was as big a threat to Russia as ACE combined (long-term at least). Yes, much of that was because you got screwed.

[OzzyKP]

You might want to read up.

[Japan (DoE)]

I am unable to connect to the game. Is anyone else having this problem?

[Calanthian]

Well I guess it's about time I put my 2 cents in..

First of all: I played Azteca, as a late game sub..

What I tried to do is play an independent game, and stay away from the two big static alliances which where firmly in position at that point.

My position was in terrible shape, and I had to do a big economic program first to try to recover. Then teching crucial military tech. Resulting in a position which was not too far behind, while in a crappy position.

I tried to get things going with mainly the Incans, they kept me stringing allong for a while.. in the end resulting in nothing. Was in good, but little frequent relation with the players around me..

Was contemplating where it would be possible to find an eight city (which was needed for some national wonders). (the plan was for one brief moment africa, but that was dropped within one turn).

Then the attack of the Ottomans on America happened. As I had a fleet (which I would need in all instances to get that eight city) and I found this a case to finally do something within the game I decided to attack and managed brilliantly, with crippling results.

As I was new curious about the results of the Ottoman counter move, and wasn't aware of the Pittboss double move rule being in place while not moving at all, simply looking around (this was my first pittboss)..
the whole thing got cancelled, the whole surprise effect was lost and the chance to win against superior forces was also down the drain..

And at that moment I still tried to get an Pan-American alliance going, while being in good relations with France, Neandor and Vikings..

Then the game developed into a cold war between the two big alliances (in my opinion a bit boring).. I got massive help from my allies..

After it became clear that Inca was upgrading destroyers for the Ottomans, with NO oil in sight for the entire alliance, except in Azteca > so it was clear that the sea was lost if no oil was made available soon to the alliance. And without the seas Azteca would die anyway (being so far from the bulk of the alliance).

So we had no other option as to donate our city to the Vikings..
sadly the culture of the nearby Natives city proved too big a problem: the culture stayed too low (even with massive culture building spending), to even get control of the oil site, 1 tile away from the city center. Meanwhile because of this same thing the entire city was starving..

Still the only option to survive was to get the oil going..

Then we got tricked by the Ottoman harbour action: there were 25+ Viking (previously Aztec) units on site, and the entire Aztec / french fleet (30+). But as the Vkings were on "open borders" with the Ottomans their troops didn't stop the single unit which simply moved into the harbour >> resulting in destruction of the entire fleet.

All was hopeless, but we struggled on..

Still we refused to be bullied around, but got attacked again by Russia, Ottomans, with Incan always looming overhead, and got the revolution / mad king act going (which I found interesting )

The last 10 turns or so there was absolutely nothing to do (1 city, a few units) so then I faded away..