Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Setup Thread]

[WarningU2]

Are the thread subscription emails working for this new site? I note that there is an issue for people not being able to receive their confirmation emails that are registering for the new apolyton unless they have a gmail account.

[Robert]

e-mail is not working at all (except for a few exceptions), so no, thread subscriptions aren't working either

[Exploit]

Who else feels like The Priest?

I do. This game has been organized very secretly and is totally one person's vision. The idea that one player can customize the map and the rules to his vision and place people within certain areas as he deems desirable is ludicrous to the extreme. As I also mentioned earlier, I am opposed to this custom mod which was an option that was never even voted on.

I'm sure Ozzy is a scrupulously honest saint and that the rest of the players trust him but this is his game and the game is not a reflection of the game that I wanted to play or that I thought I had signed up for. As such, I apologize to everyone for the inconvenience but I am withdrawing from this game.

[Dubhghlas]

My thoughts:

1) I just want to play. It's taking too long for that to happen. Grand efforts to make everything "perfect" by map-tweaking, re-writing code, etc., may seem a good idea, but when they result in a game taking as long to be put together as this one has been, it's death to the game. If we had simply started the game with a less-than-perfect setup shortly after it was proposed, we'd be well on our way by now. As it is, with the release of CiV in less than three weeks, I worry about commitment to the game.

2) In a perfect world, the person who puts a mod together is not one of the players of the mod. This way, worries about "fairness" cannot enter into anyone's mind. Further, the mod should not be touched after the mod-maker knows who is playing what civ; there is simply no need to "handicap" the players, unless the players being handicapped have specifically requested that that happen. As a tier 4 player, destined for the Solomon Islands, or the outer reaches of Patagonia, or some such thing, it really doesn't matter to me that much, but it simply invites more potential for complaint. Set the map, then pick the civs, then go. A properly set-up mod won't need further tweaking.

3) You cannot let "democracy" be your method of micro-managing everything. The Greeks learned this, to their despair. Very broad themes can be set by vote; after that, you craft the game according to the themes selected by the principle of "majority rules." So a good sequence would be: a) someone proposes an idea for a game, and suggests three or four themes that need to be decided by majority vote (we did that), b) we vote and set those themes (we sort of did that, though the vote kept morphing as people kept offering new, "improved" ideas), c) the game gets produced based upon the voted themes (in our case, we've moved quite far from the original idea, and even the voted themes are being stretched a bit beyond what we envisioned), and d) we play. If by the time you get to d), the players don't recognize the a) in the game any more, that's gonna be troublesome, as we are seeing now, even with everyone's best intentions.

Mind you, I am NOT being critical of anyone here. I've kept my nose out of the discussions primarily because i) I simply want it to get going! and ii) I know somewhat of the intense preparation involved in making something like this happen, and ain't gonna criticize what I won't myself be arsed to do. I'm quite thankful that there are those willing to attempt it.

But I do think that a somewhat more strict adherence to the principles set forth above would reduce the pre-game friction and allow for a quicker start to a game.

[Exploit]

Just some added thoughts about the proposed mod and game balance. The original idea of the tier system was to place all the "good" players in Europe to make it more difficult for them because they would have less room to expand and fewer cities and make a more balanced game. My understanding is that Ozzy is considered to be one of those Tier 1 players.

The game mod then allows tighter packed cities which negates the tight packed Europe problem (no one other than european civs are likely to make use of this close packed city rule change) and turns being in Europe into a strength (many neighbors in close proximity to improve research times). Furthermore the mod then adds unusable terrain to the lesser tiers (I doubt there are any marsh land tiles in Europe) which negates the advantage of having more room to expand so that their civs are now less desirable and making their game more difficult.

So the net result is the Tier 1 players who were supposed to be balanced by their more difficult starting position can claim that they were handicapped by their starting location while the mod actually hurts all the other tiers and helps the Tier 1 players. That is not a balanced start to the game.

[Robert]

@Exploit: please do not leave us yet! Let's try to come to a solution first.

For the record first: it was not Ozzy's idea to tweak the map after the civpicking had happened. I suggested more choices after many of you expressed the desire to have something to chose.

Since quite some people are now expressing concerns I suggest a final voting:
Say YES or NEUTRAL or NO to every option!

YES = love to (=2pt)
NEUTRAL = don't mind (=1pt)
NO = please not. (=0pt)

1. What kinda games do you like to play?
a. tier-system with multiple civ picking (more choice, map needs tweaking after picking): YES | NEUTRAL | NO
b. tier-system with only 18 choices (less choice, no map tweaking after picking) YES | NEUTRAL | NO
c. guided civ picking system, 'best' players pick last: YES | NEUTRAL | NO
d. free civ picking system (random pick-order, every civ is available from a pre-created list of 18 civs): YES | NEUTRAL | NO

2. Do you like it to play:
a. With the place cities 2 tiles from each other mod? YES | NEUTRAL | NO
b. With the terrain mods (marsh, tundra tweak, etc.)? YES | NEUTRAL | NO
c. Shipsmod, all ships can sail twice as fast! YES | NEUTRAL | NO
d. Coastline mod: ships sail twice as fast in oceans only. Not in coastlines/seas! YES | NEUTRAL | NO
e. Just plain good old civ4 without mods: YES | NEUTRAL | NO

[2metraninja]

I will play the game even with this mod, but for me it is best to play the game unaltered. I was thinking the same - tier1 players should be ok even with less space for cities. I've seen people on Earth map being the world super-power in Europe, so a good player can pull this off even without a 1-space city placement. And on other hand - for the tier4 players will be hard to compete with the other trading free civs even without the land-limiting features.

To me these are the issues. Anonimoucity and tiers are ok by me

[St Jon]

YES = love to (=2pt)
NEUTRAL = don't mind (=1pt)
NO = please not. (=0pt)

1. What kinda games do you like to play?
a. tier-system with multiple civ picking (more choice, map needs tweaking after picking): NO
b. tier-system with only 18 choices (less choice, no map tweaking after picking) NEUTRAL
c. guided civ picking system, 'best' players pick last: NEUTRAL
d. free civ picking system (random pick-order, every civ is available from a pre-created list of 18 civs): NEUTRAL

2. Do you like it to play:
a. With the place cities 2 tiles from each other mod? NO
b. With the terrain mods (marsh, tundra tweak, etc.)? NO
c. Shipsmod, all ships can sail twice as fast! NO
d. Coastline mod: ships sail twice as fast in oceans only. Not in coastlines/seas! NO
e. Just plain good old civ4 without mods: YES

[St Jon]

Unneeded post - I've realised the answer to my own question.

[BranksDilly]

1. What kinda games do you like to play?
a. tier-system with multiple civ picking (more choice, map needs tweaking after picking): YES | NEUTRAL | NO
b. tier-system with only 18 choices (less choice, no map tweaking after picking) YES | NEUTRAL | NO
c. guided civ picking system, 'best' players pick last: YES | NEUTRAL | NO
d. free civ picking system (random pick-order, every civ is available from a pre-created list of 18 civs): YES | NEUTRAL | NO

2. Do you like it to play:
a. With the place cities 2 tiles from each other mod? YES | NEUTRAL | NO
b. With the terrain mods (marsh, tundra tweak, etc.)? YES | NEUTRAL | NO
c. Shipsmod, all ships can sail twice as fast! YES | NEUTRAL | NO
d. Coastline mod: ships sail twice as fast in oceans only. Not in coastlines/seas! YES | NEUTRAL | NO
e. Just plain good old civ4 without mods: YES | NEUTRAL | NO

[BranksDilly]

Oh and for what it's worth I trust RP and Ozzy 100% and feel like in the interest of getting the game going we should allow them the freedom to do so.

I highly doubt that Ozzy is going through all this trouble to gain an advantage. True civ players like a challenge rather than a cake walk.

[Pinchak]

For the record first: it was not Ozzy's idea to tweak the map after the civpicking had happened. I suggested more choices after many of you expressed the desire to have something to chose.

I understand now, and agree. Starting points may need to be adjusted depending on everyones final civ choice. Can't have two right next to each other.

As long as Ozzy has no knowledge of who is what civ I am comfortable with this.



Hey, what tech speed is this game going to be?

[DNK]

1. What kinda games do you like to play?
a. tier-system with multiple civ picking (more choice, map needs tweaking after picking): NEUTRAL
b. tier-system with only 18 choices (less choice, no map tweaking after picking) NO
c. guided civ picking system, 'best' players pick last: YES
d. free civ picking system (random pick-order, every civ is available from a pre-created list of 18 civs): NO

2. Do you like it to play:
a. With the place cities 2 tiles from each other mod? YES
b. With the terrain mods (marsh, tundra tweak, etc.)? NEUTRAL
c. Shipsmod, all ships can sail twice as fast! YES
d. Coastline mod: ships sail twice as fast in oceans only. Not in coastlines/seas! NO
e. Just plain good old civ4 without mods: YES

[2metraninja]

1. What kinda games do you like to play?
a. tier-system with multiple civ picking (more choice, map needs tweaking after picking): NEUTRAL
b. tier-system with only 18 choices (less choice, no map tweaking after picking) YES
c. guided civ picking system, 'best' players pick last: NEUTRAL
d. free civ picking system (random pick-order, every civ is available from a pre-created list of 18 civs): NEUTRAL

2. Do you like it to play:
a. With the place cities 2 tiles from each other mod? NEUTRAL
b. With the terrain mods (marsh, tundra tweak, etc.)? NO
c. Shipsmod, all ships can sail twice as fast! NO
d. Coastline mod: ships sail twice as fast in oceans only. Not in coastlines/seas! NEUTRAL
e. Just plain good old civ4 without mods: YES

[Hercules]

1. What kinda games do you like to play?
a. tier-system with multiple civ picking (more choice, map needs tweaking after picking): NEUTRAL
b. tier-system with only 18 choices (less choice, no map tweaking after picking) YES
c. guided civ picking system, 'best' players pick last: YES
d. free civ picking system (random pick-order, every civ is available from a pre-created list of 18 civs): NEUTRAL

2. Do you like it to play:
a. With the place cities 2 tiles from each other mod? YES
b. With the terrain mods (marsh, tundra tweak, etc.)? NO
c. Shipsmod, all ships can sail twice as fast! NO
d. Coastline mod: ships sail twice as fast in oceans only. Not in coastlines/seas! NEUTRAL
e. Just plain good old civ4 without mods: YES