Destiny of Empires [Diplo Game] [Setup Thread]

[OzzyKP]

Because people don't think things through.

[Exploit]

I'm happy to switch tier with you if you believe that tier1 is better then tier2

Actually, I am willing to take you up on that. Let's swap tiers. Not because I think tier1 is better but because I do not believe it is any worse and I'm looking to prove it.

[Robert]

The fact that people have different opinions doesn't mean they aren't thinking things through.
Exploit's points make sense. The 1 tiles between cities mod will help Europe but may have a huge disadvantage for civs elsewhere.
And tier-4 civs will have a major draw back of contacting only 3 other civs early in the game, which will negatively influence their research. If the other civs then can also double their ship movement.

It's a well thought through opinion.
The one question is: is it that important that it will hurt the game.
To that question Ozzy says: No and Exploit says: Yes.

We can most probably tell after the game has finished who was right.
But we have to decide now. So all leave sour remarks behind and just discuss the content of the questions that are raised.

[Robert]

Actually, I am willing to take you up on that. Let's swap tiers. Not because I think tier1 is better but because I do not believe it is any worse and I'm looking to prove it.

If everybody else agrees....

[Robert]

My suggestion:
1. double ocean speed for all ships
2. make ship passages possible between: alaska/russia, south america/south pole/australia, australia/south-east-asia

By doing so the European civs will not meet the Americas anyway until astronomy (no european ship will make it to alaska or australia. before then) but the American civs can contact the other civs (or many of them).
For european ships that means they can still have their 'new world' expeditions

the large-ocean problem will be fixed.
America won't be isolated for the entire game
it's somehow historical accurate (for european civs at least)
it will help tier4 and not tier1 civs.

All should be happy with this possible solution, eventhough all should also give and take a bit.
I think that if Exploit and Ozzy agree on this, we have a solution that's acceptable to all.

[OzzyKP]

The fact that people have different opinions doesn't mean they aren't thinking things through.
Exploit's points make sense. The 1 tiles between cities mod will help Europe but may have a huge disadvantage for civs elsewhere.
And tier-4 civs will have a major draw back of contacting only 3 other civs early in the game, which will negatively influence their research. If the other civs then can also double their ship movement.

We turned off tech trading, how could it possibly negatively influence their research?

[Robert]

The research rate of a certain tech is increased when you know more civs that already have that tech.

If the Chinese are researching Archery, while they met the Indians, Japanese and Russians (who all 3 have archery)
then their research speed is faster then the
Natives who are researching Archery, who only have met the Inca, who don't have archery yet.

[Black Knight 427]

If everybody else agrees....

I'm cool with this.

[OzzyKP]

I don't terribly like it, but there are other things I dislike much more.

[Exploit]

If everybody else agrees....

Can we make that, if no one else objects instead? That way we do not need to do a poll and if anyone has an issue with our tier swap then they just need to bring it up.

[Robert]

Yes, that's what I intended...
People should object if they have objections.

@Exploit: do you agree with the ocean-sailing solution I suggested in post #500 (how symbolic!)

[Exploit]

All should be happy with this possible solution, eventhough all should also give and take a bit.
I think that if Exploit and Ozzy agree on this, we have a solution that's acceptable to all.

I do not like it since it still favors the stronger players but I will accept it as long as no Tier 4 players object to it.

The implications to Tier 4 players are:

1) you gain the ability to make contact with the rest of the world much earlier (build a ship(s) early to take advantage of this)
2) given the length of time it takes to build a ship and sail it through these passes, you will still be behind on tech compared to an equivalent Old World civ but not as much as you would be without these passes
3) it is going to be very difficult for you to defend against suprise amphibious assaults especially in the modern era (transports are going to be able to stay outside of your visiual range and zoom in without any warning on your coastal cities). You will need to defend every coastal city with many troops as a result whereas without this mod you would generally get a turn of warning to move troops to vulnerable cities.

[DNK]

My suggestion:
1. double ocean speed for all ships
2. make ship passages possible between: alaska/russia, south america/south pole/australia, australia/south-east-asia

By doing so the European civs will not meet the Americas anyway until astronomy (no european ship will make it to alaska or australia. before then) but the American civs can contact the other civs (or many of them).
For european ships that means they can still have their 'new world' expeditions

the large-ocean problem will be fixed.
America won't be isolated for the entire game
it's somehow historical accurate (for european civs at least)
it will help tier4 and not tier1 civs.

As a T4 player, #1 is completely fine by me. #2 also since I proposed it myself. I'd add that I'd like early ships to have +1 movement because it will help us find new civs and it will help those of us who need to rely on the coasts for expansion.

I'm going to reargue again my position that I really think giving T4 players easier Old World starts would be a lot fairer, funner, and wouldn't create all these complications, but we're obviously sold on leaving us to the New World, even though there's plenty of room still available in the Old. I don't care if T1 runs off with the late game so long as it's fun and interesting up until they all hit Astronomy. There's your realism, and it's not coming at the weaker players' expense. If one or two people want to take the Americas and suffer slow teching speeds due to weak resources and only 1 trading partner, even with 12 cities they'd still probably end up run over by the highly advanced Old World, especially since the east coasts -the best terrain- would get devastated first (and perhaps without warning), but at least they could put up a fight and not be easily divided when that time came, and it would be a lot more fun than someone stuck as Sitting Bull looking over tundra, mountains, and plains hills for 5 months.

Even just take one player out of the Americas and it gets a lot better for everyone involved in T4 and gives them a true handicap bonus. As is, T4 has a very hard game ahead of them, which is silly for a system designed to give them the most help.

I won't say any more, since I know I've argued enough about this now, but I wanted to add another angle and another option: 3 New World players, 1 Old for T4. I think Bull is the obvious choice to drop from the New.

[Robert]

Ok, then we have a deal. Thanks to Ozzy and Exploit.

Last struggle is the new map. Europe may be too packed without the ability to place two cities close to each other.
We can as a solution move both the Germans and the Russians a bit to the east. That gives a little bit more room for the European civs.

[Robert]

Keep in mind that in a Diplogame no civs are eliminated, and we have measured war! (see first post of this thread where it is all explained!)