The Dance of Civilizations [Diplo Game] [Organization Thread Pt1]

[Inca (DoC)]

I guess I shouldn't be dead last in attitude next month after all this turmoil. Not really sure why I was this month. I'll keep playing and enjoying.

It is surprise to me also and I see no bad attitude from you. Mali is not last in attitude to me but it is all each person decision to make alone. Strange thing to vote for as what is my attitude is different from your attitude ideas.

[Persia (DoC)]

Maybe Robert can put such a status in the opening post of this thread somewhere near the top?

[Arabia (DoC)]

Suggestion

I wonder if we could have a thread that is only for Game Status so rather than have to go looking for the current status in red text amongst all the other chit chat.

Then I could put an instant notice on and not have to go looking when the game is down/paused or whatever. Is that possible?

[Orb (DoC)]

never mind

[Persia (DoC)]

Russia: your attack was well prepared and definitely didn't came out of nothing! I have nothing against anything you did! You play an awesome game here!

And you're right, it's absolutely fun!!

And to be honest, I anticipated an attack from you sooner or later, that's why I had that army in Hastogsburg. But then the call for help came and I just wanted to answer. I was stupid enough to ignore the signals you sent. I figured that you would not attack me that brutally while I was marching towards England But hey, you did!

And I did try to keep you a friend, promising 1 gpt for every hastog city you would convert and offering you 1 free voucher.
The only question I have for you is: Did/do you really believe that you had/have a chance or was it more opportunistic? My answer to Ottoman/Arabia was opportunistic and not thought through (obviously).
I think that your backstab was also a bit opportunistic.

But hey, that's more fun then those boring well prepared wars
Awesome to hear that you declared war without closing borders first!

If my bluff works and I am able to deport you to another shore, I'll promise that I'll help you there. I believe that you may actually benefit from a new start with all my techs on some new land. I hope you won't abandon the game if I succeed in taking your cities one by one. My story to deport you to new lands is real! I don't know yet if the land will be big enough for enough cities yet, but if not then I'll colonize a 2nd world for you as well.

I promise to be your slave as well if you win!


@Ozzy: Persia did not backstab Russia in the beginning, we never were friends and the only words we had exchanged were "Pay!"

[OzzyKP]

Don't forget that Russia's backstabby betrayal follows Persia's backstabby betrayal that succeeded in taking one third of Russian territory. Russian Machiavelli drew inspiration from ancient Persia.

[Russia (DoC)]

speaking of the Russian backstab... well, there were warning signs. I refused a tech trade deal that Persia felt should cement our relationship. I announced that Russia would not fight for Persia to spread Hastogianism, and I was about to cancel open borders so Persia could not move through Russia to fight England. And I made a claim to Hastograd. When I saw Persian troops already moving through my lands I decided to take a chance. Note that I did not cancel open borders first to see where the troops would be deposited. I threw the dice and I was lucky enough for both armies to be thrown in a location that I could reach with my army.

As for backstabbing and friendliness etc. Persia has tried to help Russia repeatedly, but that would be help that we would not have needed had not Persia taken us down in the beginning. So, though the war may not be fair or justified, I felt it was necessary and most importantly FUN! It changes the dynamic of our entire continent, it causes civs to change their priorities and most importantly it is a fair fight. The only way a small nation can challenge a large is by trickery, and even then small civs usually will lose due to the nature of the game mechanics. There is just too much of an advantage being big, if I were to fight a fair fight with Persia I would lose, no contest. This was backstabby and a betrayal. Well, Machiavelli was born in Russia in this world. Big civs should always expect to be backstabbed. You're not paranoid if they're really after you... and they are.

[Robert]

The Game has been paused/stopped for England, to give them time to play their turn.
England, please e-mail me when you're ready to play!

[Mali (DoC)]

I guess I shouldn't be dead last in attitude next month after all this turmoil. Not really sure why I was this month. I'll keep playing and enjoying.

[OzzyKP]

Hey Toni, what's going on with your country?

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?t=189472

[OzzyKP]

I've always favored getting rid of the one tech for one tech trade rule, especially for the free trades. It seems like old techs like that are custom designed to be packaged together in a 2 or 3 for one trade. Or traded for other non-tech items.

[India (DoC)]

I think the 1 on 1 trade was only here to keep these trades in "diplo", but it isn't anyway. Got a trade offer from civs I hardly have contact with and sure I've accepted.
This change wouldnt have any effect except it would help those who are not too fast getting those missing techs while it is possible at all.

[The Priest]

Underneath the heat there is the issue here of how to keep the spread relatively small between the civs who in-game are more successful and those who are less. In-game there are always going to winners and losers, and its the diplo and votes which matters, yet if the gap grows too big it can be hard for the nations at the bottom of the heap to still feel actively involved.

There is lots in the rules and how we play which tries to help towards this. But can we do more?

Mzprox suggested a while back an idea about giving out more vouchers periodically - I wasn't convinced by perhaps I should have thought more about it. Maybe it is still the way to go?

I wonder if there is a simpler idea though.

The current system about classical techs being tradeable without vouchers once four are in the renaissance etc. seems to have something going for it. The trigger point of 'four in era x+2' is meaningful - at the point when the four tech leaders reached this, lots still needed classical techs, and partiuclarly for the less developed nations there were still many classical techs needed. But it doesn't appear to have disincentivised technological development - its still worth being a tech leader.

But, why do we insist they have to be on a one-for-one trade basis? I am sure there was probably a reason, but I can't think of it.

What if, we said that once four reach Renaissance, all civs automatically gain every classical tech.

What difference would that make?

Currently when the trigger happens
- civs who are missing one or two classical techs, get them.
- civs who are missing many, get some but find it hard to get them all because they need to be able to trade for them, and very quickly the trade dries up because those with the more obscure classical techs have all the otthers so can't trade one-for-one.

On the new proposal
- civs who are missing one or two classical techs, get them. No change.
- civs who are missing many, get them. A help for them.

So the new proposal would not help them stronger civs, but would provide a more effective uplift to the weaker. There would be an absolute technological floor below which no nation can fall.

Two other minor points in favour:

- It avoids the great potential for mistakes in teh current system when you offer someone a one-for-one trade but by the time they accept someone else has acceped a similar trade, and you find yourself giving away the tech not trading.
- Its a development of our system which needs no more admin - we track the first four to enter the ages anyway. It doesn't disturb vouchers, or bring in new voltans etc.

(Obviously people can ask how IG do we achieve 'ever nation gains ever classical tech' but its not hard. The turn after the trigger we all have a duty to give our classical techs to everyone who needs them. Since it doesn't matter who you receive them from (its a right, there is no diplo involved / to be gained) it would work fine.)

Changing rules during the game always seems a dangerous idea. An even the discussion can be fraught with diplo undercurrents (so this is posted under my real name, though I guess that makes no difference). But this game is still in its infancy - far more to play than we have played so far. So far we haven't expereinced a real sense of civ-redundancy - the bottom score nations have just attacked England - England certainly doesn't see them as unimportant right now! But perhaps we need to do more to avoid it coming in over the next month.

Just a suggestion. Maybe there is an obvious flaw?

[Orb (DoC)]

I agree with that as long as Ozzy is the one who does it. And its ok RP I have no idea who you really are...or do I?

[Robert]

Ok, we've all had the chance to blow of some steam.
There's no problem doing that now and then, especially not if it happens in a civilized manner as above. (I think)

But let's now stop it again.
This is a request, not a rule. Everybody is always free to post his opinion about the game in the org thread. But maybe it's better now to cool down again before we get a real fight.

1. We keep as strictly as we can to the story=in character, org = out of character distinction. I think RP should just delete posts which don't follow this - if people want to repost they can. Or if RP doesn't want to because he is player and can get accused of bias (since we all know he is the Ethiopians) Ozzy could do it. And occ includes for exmpale reference to 'big four countries' etc. which are not in character ideas (as someone reminded us on here recently)- any post in story with taht sort of reference Ozzy should just delete.

I agree. Do others also agree?
Ozzy, would you be willing to do that?

Byzantium, your #2 idea sounds good to me but I wonder if it's able to implement this now. (and especially: will it matter now we all know how big the civs already are)

Bottomline: enjoy the game!
I at least do!
I'm back to Ethiopia now! (I doubt that there's anybody left who doesn't know my identity, but hey, I will continue to pretent!)