Beyond the Pit -Argument and Debate Thread

[The Capo]

Having said that; there MUST be a real explanation of this beyond the rules written down. There has to be. This is honestly unprecedented in Diplogaming. We really need to get down to the route of the problem rather than what has occured in order to truly amend it.

I have a theory, but I don't want to ruin this game by talking about it. Although I'd advise this game be ENDED NOW and a new game started with proper devices in place to prevent these issues from sullying future pitboss games.

EDIT: If you want to IM me I'm around right now, but I'm intoxicated.... again...

[Robert]

Reload.

Why?
What rule has been broken? What's the accusation?

[Pitboss Japan]

I'm not happy about this reload as knowing your enemy's move can mess up with his strategy.
We should reload only when someone involved in the situation asks it and can explain it.
Now I'm going to write here what exactly i have done in my turn so those who care can decide if the reload is justified and what was my mistake(s). I already know that i should have moved all my units in one go, i will in the future- but i think this time it didnt really caused trouble that makes reload necessary.

So i logged in and made my turn normally-then stayed online, mostly tabbed out, I thought i will wait untill Pericles come online. At this point close to end of the turn i didnt think that Russia hadnt moved yet-(now i know i should have seen a small star next to his name).
These are the moves which are affected our war:
City A was in danger so i moved out my units from city B and send them toward city A ( i made it so that unless Russia have spies there he couldnt see them).
At some time i saw that russia moved a single unit close to city B, He saw that it is quite undefended (because it's defenders were halfway between city A and B most likely still unseen to Russia), so he moved his whole attacking force from city A to B. I answered this by now moving out from city A to the same spot where my units were from city B.

At this time i become uncertain about the rules so i posted my question on the forum, about simultaneous turns and how to avoid double moves.

In my next turn i moved back those originaly B city defennders to city B and left those originally A city defenders on the same spot so none of my units made a double move. That time i finished my turn completely

There was one other thing what happened and it raises a question:
I have accepted a diplomatic offer -my capitulation to sparta- and it was after Russia's move.
so the question: can diplomatic negotiations happen during anytime in a turn or i cannot deal just at the time when i'm moving my units?

[Robert]

Japan, the reload was not needed for rule reasons but just a way to contain another fight. In this game the paranoid screamers get what they want.

Yesterday Russia kept insisting that I had blatantly lied about playing my turn before 1am (just 1 stupid accusion)
I then went all the way, showed him on civstats what time my turn ended, I showed him my timezone, made the calculation for him, which once again proved that I ended my turn at 00:30am.

After that he was active for 40 more minutes on the forum, now you would expect that he would post in public, or at least in pm to me in private, that his accusion of me lying about my game-time was wrong.

But no, that's not how it works.
People yell and scream and insult and accuse in big posts in public.
But they'll never admit their wrongs in private and certainly not in public.

A reload is the only way to deal with it.
Just to stop the crap. And another step has been made. The paranoid accusers get their way.

Yes, Russia can now take advantage and use their knowledge to attack you.
We may hope that Russia won't do that and will just re-do their turns like they did it last time.

But we cannot enforce it. paranoia always beats sanity.

[The Capo]

paranoia always beats sanity.

I think its insulting to label everything you disagree with as paranoia Cyber. Its certainly not helpful.

[Robert]

I don't lable anything I disagree with as paranoia.

[Pinchak]

We should rename this game "Beyond Drama".

[St Jon]

I post this here rather than the Organisation Thread as it is better suited to here. It is an answer to Ozzy's question on that thread so move it if you wish Cyber.

Agreed. I certainly don't blame Japan or remotely accuse him of cheating or deliberate foul play. The only way to determine if harm was done was to ask the supposedly aggrieved party. Russia seems to be very upset over what happened, so that proves that some harm was done. It isn't up to us to decide what level of harm is substantial enough to warrant a reload.

Very simple Ozzy.

a) More than 6hrs had elapsed since the end of the previous Turn so I was perfectly entitled to enter the Game and play my Turn. That I didn't do so was personal choice because it was not yet clear if we had you as Japan, a new Japan or even mo Japan at all. Because of the confusion whoever was playing Japan had lost their 6hr advantage because of it. When we did give Japan to a new Player - very bad time in to the middle of a war as I said beforehand - and they posted that they would login later and look at what they had I felt it even more important to allow them the chance to see for themselves.

b) Japan logged on later, I could see, and I waited. An hour later they were still logged in, not unreasonable given I thought as their very first Turn of Diplo in a pretty frantic siyuation, but 2hrs passed. I began to think 'strange' but waited on until, after over 3hrs have elapsed still 'In Game' I had to take my Turn before going to bed or lose it entirely.

c) I logged on but did not move any Units until I looked at the situation. I did still have to promote newly produced ones so I have now started my Turn. Just by logging in, even by the rules we are playing under, it is now illegal for me to logout and login later to complete my Turn.

d) Piercia (Japanese) has 3 remaining Cities. Owari, Osaka and Manilla Harbour. Only the first 2 count as Manilla Harbour is size 2, poorly garrisoned and furthest East. I could see immediately that Osaka and Owari had drafted but only Owari's garrison had increased. So Japan had already moved - drafting cannot be claimed to not be a move - still less the troops that had to have physically left Osaka. I had troops at Owari and others, mostly Infantry and Seige, heading toward Osaka and needing reinforcement from Tokyo to actually attack. I have a straight choice of attack that Turn a much better, than expected, garrisoned Owari 'probably' successfully but very costly. With clear roads I could have got some Infantry in quite quickly - certainly enough to stop anything Japan alone could muster - but never what Sparta could through at it if she chose to, very likely it appeared to me. The alternative was to abandon Owari and head straight for the most valuable City, Osaka, with both Northern and Southern troops. Takes longer but the damaged units from Tokyo would have healed to join and regardless of drafts Osaka would fall in 2 Turns. If Sparta moves against Owari it will not cause me tears. If Sparta takes Owari as a bridgehead to attack me I need the South clean and all roads open.

d) The game freezes and tells me another Player is joining the game and in comes Cyber! When he has joined the game even tells me that both Greece and Japan want to speak with me. I think a game bug only.

e) Game becomes live again so I put some Units in transit and stop to make my final decision. Note that Sparta has not as yet done anything, that I can see, but there must have been housekeeping. I opt out of the attack and move South. Within a couple pf minutes the map blurs and when I check all but a single Musketman and Bowman have left Owari! Clearly a double move!

f) I was extremely disenchanted by this as it was clearly pre-planned and based on part moving and then, for hours, waiting for Russia to move so as to have the best of both worlds. A strong enough garrison at Owari to deter Russian attack and the flexibility to get to Osaka first. If that had not been pulled those troops could never have reached Osaka in time.

g) I compose my little 'message to the people' and go to post it but find that Sparta has posted first announcing that Japan had Capitulated and 'Game Mechanics' had forced her to declare war on Russia. That it was not a new war that would cause Russia to claim Roman or Wyandot aid but just a way of getting round the way the game works!

h) The biggest joke of all Cyber is that by playing that ploy to get over IC/IG consequences you actually helped me! Far better all troops gathered as one Army at Tokyo as only 1 Turn added to attack Osaka with overwhelming force or defend Tokyo if you had broken the existing rule, rubbish rule I know, regarding inclusion of the Turn before as part of the Double Move Rule.

Sorry very long post to explain my annoyance and why there had to be a re-load but it is important to get this straight.

1. You set a precedent by allowing this tactic. You cannot say 'It's all OK it just musn't happen again' which is just what happened to Capo/Pinchak and apparently to Rome earlier. If it was right then it's right for the rest of the game!

2. You cannot tutor, IG, a new player to move as you wish! Why even bother with a new Japan, in that case, just play both Sparta and Japan yourself? You were not logged in all that time so how were you helping and advising. That's not paranoia it's just the straight facts!

3. You cannot fight lengthy battles OOG for clarity and correctness while the games rolls on until those decisions are rendered irrelevent by the passage of time and retrospective sanctions might be applied long after the deed was done.

4) I think it was Pinchak who said over the Spartan double move issue that in some things you cannot have shades of grey. There is only Black and White! This was wrong, not half wrong or just a bit naughty, it was a deliberate abuse of Game Mechanics to achieved a desired result. It cannot be called a cheat because there is no rule barring it but it is still wrong!

5) Very last point! Regardless of anything else I was the victim of a double move and an obvious one so a re-load is required and no arguement about that!

I rest my case,
FF

[Pitboss Japan]

e) I opt out of the attack and move South. Within a couple pf minutes the map blurs and when I check all but a single Musketman and Bowman have left Owari! Clearly a double move!

f) I was extremely disenchanted by this as it was clearly pre-planned and based on part moving and then, for hours, waiting for Russia to move so as to have the best of both worlds. A strong enough garrison at Owari to deter Russian attack and the flexibility to get to Osaka first. If that had not been pulled those troops could never have reached Osaka in time.

It was not a double move, but you are right that it would have been if i move with those troops in my next turn. But i realized this and left them in place: those units did not moved to Osaka, just those men, who left Osaka before you made your move, have returned.
It was not preplanned at all, i hope you will see that. I should have moved out from owari in my next turn not in the previous, but i did not exploited my mistake.
Anyway we have reloaded now, i expect you to make your move to Osaka, where you will see the same as you seen in the first place: two defenders.
The more strickter rules (ie: no negotiation/diplomacy at anytime but only when you move), which was proposed by Cyber actually put you in better position as my capitulation before your move let you get to Osaka one turn sooner.

[Pitboss Greece]

What's your point, Russia. Japan had a 3 hour long turn, which is indeed ridiculous, but not against the rules (unfortunately).
He didn't end his turn yet either. This situation is unwanted indeed, hence the rule change I proposed.

I was extremely disenchanted by this as it was clearly pre-planned and based on part moving and then, for hours, waiting for Russia to move so as to have the best of both worlds.

Don't be paranoid, it wasn't pre-planned.

Sparta has posted first announcing that Japan had Capitulated and 'Game Mechanics' had forced her to declare war on Russia.

No, game mechanics had forced peace between Japan and Russia.
Is that what you wanted?

The biggest joke of all Cyber is that by playing that ploy to get over IC/IG consequences you actually helped me!

I know, that's why I never understood your problem.
I did declare war to let you continue your war against Japan instead of having to be forced to end it.
I discussed this with Japan, and we concluded that it would not be fair to let your invasion of Japan to be stopped by game mechanics (japan becoming my vassal)

if you had broken the existing rule, rubbish rule I know, regarding inclusion of the Turn before as part of the Double Move Rule.

Which rule was broken and how?
I don't understand you here.

2. You cannot tutor, IG, a new player to move as you wish!

I did not. I offered Japan peace and protection in exchange for vassalage.
A very understandable move in in-game terms. Everybody understands that Japan needs protection and help at this point in the game.

He was free to reject it.

You were not logged in all that time so how were you helping and advising. That's not paranoia it's just the straight facts!

First you say that I tell him how to move, and now you realise that I wasn't even there. So what's your point?

He waited for me to login for 3 hours, then I first explained the diplo rules.
After that we went in-game and we negotiated peace.

What is your problem?
I have advised you when you became a new player as well many times. You sent me many many pm's and I tried to help you. Now you say that I could not do that to Japan?

it was a deliberate abuse of Game Mechanics to achieved a desired result.

Don't be paranoid.
It was Japan's first turn in a diplo game.

a re-load is required and no arguement about that!

The game has reloaded already (twice, because you and others missed it).
Now be a big man and admit that your paranoia was wrong.
I have already said you were right about the 3 hours login of Japan! Everybody agrees that's not good. That's why we want to update the rules to include it.

And like I said, for future games we should just drop any double-move rule. It's only cause for problems.

[Pitboss Japan]

(( btw have you or anyone actually read my post? #273 in this topic... i think i made clear my motivations so ,
mistake : yes
evil preplanning: no
situation abused: no
So why cant you accept this along with my apology and not making accusations :/ ))

[St Jon]

Cyber,

I have got a re-load and that was what I wanted.

I have made my point, and it seems to have been accepted, that you cannot make half your moves and then lie in wait for your opponent to login to counter a move you might feel could hurt you.

I fear you are the paranoid one here.

I could take your post with all it's weird interpretations of things said or unsaid. However you protest too much. You know what you did and you know why you did it so why pretend?

But, since for once we have got a re-load, within time to have an effect, not great I know, then I am happy in that at least it has proven that it can actually be done!

Just please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that any motivation was to aid me or be fair to me.

mzprox,

Your english seems to have declined for now you are speaking gibberish.

It was not a double move, but you are right that it would have been if i move with those troops in my next turn. But i realized this and left them in place: those units did not moved to Osaka, just those men, who left Osaka before you made your move, have returned.
It was not preplanned at all, i hope you will see that. I should have moved out from owari in my next turn not in the previous, but i did not exploited my mistake.
Anyway we have reloaded now, i expect you to make your move to Osaka, where you will see the same as you seen in the first place: two defenders.
The more strickter rules (ie: no negotiation/diplomacy at anytime but only when you move), which was proposed by Cyber actually put you in better position as my capitulation before your move let you get to Osaka one turn sooner.

Your grammar has gone from near perfect to almost unintelligible.

How did units move out of Owari without being ordered to? You cannot debate the fact that they were there when I logged in. You cannot debate that immediately following my move away from Owari they departed the city! How much more of a double move can there be?

BTW. You do know that 6hrs starts from beginning of the NEXT Turn not end of your last move within a game turn?

As to how I move when I enter the game under these circumstances is entirely up to me. If the situation is the same I 'may' decide to follow the same strategy but if not?

Arguement ended!

Let's play the game, for as long as it lasts, not draw this out when the desired result, my desired result and the only correct decision has been arrived at.

FF

[MMC]

It made sense to me... He moved units, realised he shouldn't have, and then moved them back.

[Robert]

you cannot make half your moves and then lie in wait for your opponent to login to counter a move you might feel could hurt you.

I agreed with you on that from the beginning and immediately proposed a rule change.
I just say that this was not an attempt to exploit game rules. It was just a new player waiting for someone.

Just please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that any motivation was to aid me or be fair to me

You should not question my integrity.
When I say that I declared war because I thought that you would not like a forced peace, then I meant that.

Or did you indeed prefer a forced peace between you and Japan?

You cannot debate that immediately following my move away from Owari they departed the city!

He has already said that long ago!

How much more of a double move can there be?

It's no a double move. It's two civs moving simultaniously.
A double move is when the last civ to move during turn 1 moves first during turn 2.

Last question FF: Are you going to post that your accusations where wrong?
Are you at least going to admit that your repeated posts where you called me a liar for claiming that I played not later then 1am, were wrong? Do you have those guts?

[Robert]

you cannot make half your moves and then lie in wait for your opponent to login to counter a move you might feel could hurt you.

I agreed with you on that from the beginning and immediately proposed a rule change.
I just say that this was not an attempt to exploit game rules. It was just a new player waiting for someone.

Just please don't insult my intelligence by suggesting that any motivation was to aid me or be fair to me

You should not question my integrity.
When I say that I declared war because I thought that you would not like a forced peace, then I meant that.

Or did you indeed prefer a forced peace between you and Japan?

You cannot debate that immediately following my move away from Owari they departed the city!

He has already said that long ago!

How much more of a double move can there be?

It's no a double move. It's two civs moving simultaniously.
A double move is when the last civ to move during turn 1 moves first during turn 2.

Last question FF: Are you going to post that your accusations where wrong?
Are you at least going to admit that your repeated posts where you called me a liar for claiming that I played not later then 1am, were wrong? Do you have those guts?