Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread V]

[Pitboss Rome]

Oh for crying out loud - Maya why can't you for once follow the rules! I know you don't like being invaded but do you have to respond like this?

A clear and blatent double move. All there in civstats.

1756
Rome declares war
Rome moves. All moving done by the time Maya logs on.
(10 minutes wait while he connects)
Rome ends turn and logs out to avoid simultaneous moving.
I have the save
Maya makes his move (logging out at 2.18)

1758
Turn begins at 6.31
Maya moves again at 6.32!

What is that if not waiting for hte timing to turn over in order to get in a double move.
(and though its not my problem, it looks like a double move agianst Sparta too).

Lets avoid argument and reciminations. I can understand why Maya is annoyed IG, but that doesn't mean we can abandon our rules.

Lets just reload the beginning of 1758. Maya moved after Rome (and Greece) in 1756 so Rome (and Greece) have their oportunity to mvoe first in 1958.

[Robert]

I'll try to reload from my phone. (I'm at work)

I noticed the double move this morning. Personally I have no problem to see it through the fingers but I insist on being the first to move next turn.
but now Rome wants a reload anyway I'll try to reload, if it doesn't work through my phone I can do it in 8 hours when I'm home.

[OzzyKP]

All three of you need to agree to a turn order.

[Pitboss Maya]

Oh for crying out loud - Maya why can't you for once follow the rules!

What does the rule say?

Maybe YOU and CS need to read the rule.

And btw, according to the rule (because unlike some I do read them and follow them), this calls for a game pause, not a reload.

[Pitboss Maya]

The rules state:

Civilizations that are at war must agree to a set turn order that is enforced from the moment war is declared in-game until the war ends in-game

I demand the game be reloaded to the beginning of the turn in which Greece declared war on me so that (according to the rules) we can "agree to a set turn order".

Lets see if Cyber can follow his own rules this time around...

[Robert]

Ozzy has changed the rules 2 days ago (again!) without approval of the rest of the game community. (AND without making a notification about that right here! I didn't even know that you did because I don't read the rule-set every day on the first page)

Ozzy, why are you doing this? Especially right now during wars?
You can't just change the rules without approval. I'm going to reinstate the latest version of the rules that was officially made right here.

I am very willing to try to make a turn-order agreement, but as long as that agreement has not been made we should live up to the 6-hours rule.

I have just reloaded the game (before I read these lasts posts since I posted mined) through my mobile phone.

[Robert]

@Maya: this is not a test. Why are you trying to push things into a fight?

On 2nd thought: Rome, if you want a reload you must first explain the reason for this reload. (what 'damage' is there that warrants a reload).
I personally won't advocate a reload though I do insist on being first in the turn-order.

I'm going to pause the game now.
If Rome can explain the damage being done, we will reload. If not then we will continue from the last save (about 8 hours later) except that next turn it'll be first Sparta, then Rome then Maya. (since that's the damage that can be fixed without a reload)

My phone is having troubles now connecting to my server.
I keep on trying but consider this game to be paused now.

[St Jon]

I cannot for the life of me see a clearer case of breach of the 6hr Rule. I played my Turn overlapping and I thought it was odd that Maya were there. Turn order is largely set in BtP anyway due to Timezone and R/L commitments. Greece moves before Rome who, generallly, move before Maya. Under normal circumstances Maya might have been able to move before Rome, if Rome were later than usual, as 6hrs from Turn start would have elapsed and no arguments. This is so obviously a double move against Greece and Rome that you might use it as a copybook case. In any event there is no 'Turn Order' Rule in place in BtP. An unagreed Rule amendment done by a single person without any kind of warning to the players is utterlly ludicrous.

Pause, then re-load it, it will be a re-load anyway or just re-load it. I cannot see how anyone can argue that this is not a black and white infringement of the 6hr Rule. It was premeditated as the moment the clock ticked round and Maya logged in. The damage must be obvious as it means that defensive units will have been able to move to reinforce positions that otherwise would have represented softer targets.

[Robert]

Friendly Fire: the problem here is that Ozzy changed the rules 2 days ago.
Maya checked the rules before he made his move. According to the changed rules the Maya move was not (!!!) against the rules.

But those rules were an Ozzy solo-action, and thus not valid.
All valid rule changes have been first discussed, then announced, and then after not receiving any complains being implemented, after which a notification was made.

Not to mention that Ozzy's rule is unworkable. He wants players to agree on a turn-order, which may very well be possible, but there's no base-rule for the time that no turn-order agreement has been made. (which makes it free-for-all till an agreement has been reached)

And that's exactly what Maya did, he went free for all and just moved since according to the invalid rules he was allowed to go free for all.
There's no reason to blame Maya for this, but let's indeed just reload this turn.

Pls Maya agree with this.

I'll wait for Ozzy to explain himself regarding his solo-action.

[Robert]

The latest official rules have been re-installed on the first post of this thread.
I'll mention them here again.

These rules are NOT perfect!
Ozzy and me debated these rules but nobody commented on our suggestions.
I will make a new proposal that holds between Ozzy's and my suggestions and I ask all of you to comment on it. But FIRST we must deal with the current situation.

- 6 hours time between moving during (pre) war-time
Civilizations that are at war or want to declare war have to wait 6 hours after the turn started if they were the last of their opponent(s) to play their turn during the last turn. When all opponents have moved before those 6 hours have passed the player can play as well.

Thus, a civ at war or intending to declare war in the current turn can play their turn when:
- His opponent(s) played their last turn after he has played his last turn
- 6 hours have passed since the new turn started
- all his opponents have moved during this turn

The spirit of this rule is more important then the letter of the rule.
Key is: if a player in a (pre) war situation gets advantage because of non-turn-based gaming (where turn-based means: all players move in the same order every turn) then this will fall under the "No double move during (pre) war time" rule.

At the other side: if no damage has been done despite a double-move has been played then we will just continue playing without any corrections.
Damage is done when the player against whom a double move has been played is being disadvantaged in a (pre) war situation.

--------------------------
If any civilization violetes these rules the game will be paused and the concequences will be decided.
If damage has been done then the game will be reloaded back to the last available save on the Pitboss Server. The Pitboss Server saves every turn and keeps all saves till the game has finished.

Possible penalties, besides loading the last save are:
- removing all or a % of the votes the violator receives in a certain month or all months in a certain category or all categories
- The loss of tech vouchers (a few or all)
- removed from the game
- a warning (a player can only receive 1 warning)

This depends on the seriousness of the violation, which is not only determined by the damage being done but also by the reasons and attitude of the violater.'

[Pitboss Rome]

Damage. Ok

In 1756 I declared war against the Maya and moved ships from out at sea to disembark troops.

Armies disembarked immediately outside four Mayan cities. In three cases the Maya had a single rifleman defending. In one case two machine gunners. My forces outnumbering them. Few other Mayan forces in range to reinforce in one turn (I have fully sight of Mayan cities and judged it carefully).

Maya would then have a single turn to respond - try to move forces into place, upgrade if he had the money in the bank already.

Then I would attack the cities. War is always uncertain, but my chance of capturing each one of them was very strong.

But instead Maya has two moves. Which gives huge opportunities to reinforce the cities - to set to full gold production, and then have a turn in which to use that gold to upgrade etc. Huge damange.

That is why continuing but me then moving twice really is not the point. This was a surprise attack - although trailed in the stories. The cities fall if Maya only has a single turn to respond to the landing of my troops. Given them two turns at this key point and it all changes. Its a standard situation. When Maya attacked me it was exactly the same. Once war was declared and he moved his forces to threaten Satricum I only had one turn to get reinforcements in place. They couldn't make it (ended up one tile outside the city) and so the city fell. If I had doubled moved, it wouldn't have done.

As FF says - its a clear case of breaking the 6 hour rule, or even if we are talking about turn order, its a break in that. I launch an attack and Maya plays twice in quick succession (loggin in one minute after the new turn has happened) to get his defences in place.

Just have read CS latest post.
What so someone just changed the rules without telling anyone, and changed them to allow deliberate double moves in war time! What is this? We are tying to play a game aren't we, not turn into lawyers.

I can't work out from Civ Stats whether a reload has happened or not. CS said above that he would reload, but then talked about pausing it. So I will assume it is paused and will wait to be told on here what to do.

[Robert]

The game has been reloaded.
I tried to pause it but my VNC doesn't work anymore on my phone right now (don't know why)

I think that Rome's explanation for damage is clear and the reload is therefore needed.

The game has been reloaded, all continue now.

[mzprox]

Any rule we have or will have in the future for double moves this is exactly the kind of move we should rule out. I don't think explanation about the damage is needed for reload, The only way to avoid it is if the warring sides would agree to continue on.

((Btw-and offtopic to this discussion- i really hate the possibility of these kind of sneak attacks- I mean on technical side. It's too unrealistic to defend the coastal cities aginst these kind of assaults, and the caused damage just too big. I'd rather see a rule/mod which would prevent troops leaving/attacking from the transport unit if it has moved in the same turn.))

[St Jon]

I have never believed that the Turn before War should be included - but it is and I have to accept it - as sneak attacks are what happen in 'real life'! You do not say to your enemy 'BTW I am going to attack you next year so move your troops to the border to stop me!' as surprise is everything. It can allow a smaller nation to achieve victory over a larger - the only way they probably ever have a hope in Civ - as you can inflict massive damage in one concentrated attack. This is good and the competent player should defend their borders and have spies, scouts, subs, etc out there looking for signs of a build up of forces.

I was so unsure of our rules in BtP, after the Sparta - Maya/Korean incident, as they appeared so vague that I consulted Ming prior to my attack on Japan. I didn't know that the Jap Player was going to be expelled for cheating at that time! His responce was as follows:~

It appears that your double move rule is just that. It is meant to NOT allow for a player to have two consecutive turns during time of declaring war and actual war.

IE... You can't move at the end of the turn, declare war, and then move before your opponent. Or, declare war, move after your opponent, then move again before your opponent in the next turn.

It doesn't seem to say that you can't move before your opponent in a turn (KEY, since if you move after, it becomes a double move)... then start the next turn, declare war, move before your opponent... but then you have to wait for your opponent to move.

I think that is what I'm reading... In our MP games, we have a similar rule. If you declare war, you can move, but the turn can't advance until the attacking player has a chance to move... avoiding the double move attack.

I know that we do not allow 3rd party arbitration in BtP but I think Ming's opinion of the phrasing of our Rules should be taken as coming from a very experienced player who knows what he is saying and whose opinions have weight.

[Pitboss Greece]

Ming's rephrase of the rule appears is very correct imho. Consulting Ming personally is defenitely ok if you want someone's opinion about the interpretation of the rule.

as sneak attacks are what happen in 'real life'!

This rule is not against sneak attacks. Civ is turn-based in it's core. It's against moving twice while your opponent hasn't had the chance to move even once, which effectively means that the turn-order has been disrupted and caused an unfair disadvantage to one of the players.

I don't think explanation about the damage is needed for reload

Perhaps we should indeed move towards an immediate reload, only with the condition that the double move must have been reported before the turn ended (or the next turn ended) to avoid reloads 10 turns back.