Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread V]

[Pitboss Celts]

If a player is trading a tech as part of a deal for a Great Person, does that person need to use a voucher?

[The Capo]

I think its finally safe to say that Cyber has been driven completely insane!

[Robert]

If a player is trading a tech as part of a deal for a Great Person, does that person need to use a voucher?

Every tech one trades away costs a voucher.

civ x to civ y:
tech
3 workers

civ y to civ x:
great artist

civ x loses 1 voucher

[The Capo]

I'll make it a little clearer than Cyber did. ONLY the tech costs the voucher, you can trade anything else with impunity.

[OzzyKP]

If a player is trading a tech as part of a deal for a Great Person, does that person need to use a voucher?

It doesn't matter what you GET it only matters what you GIVE.



If Vikings give one tech to Japan in exchange for 92 workers, 4 cities, 2 great scientists, an 5,000 gold, there is one voucher spent for the one tech.

If Vikings give 2 techs, 3 cities, 5 frigates, and a great engineer to Japan in exchange for 6 workers, 8 samuari, 5 techs, 3,500 gold, and a work boat, there are 7 vouchers spent for the 7 techs.

If Vikings give 3 techs to Japan as a gift, there is three vouchers spent. Those vouchers can come from either the Vikings or Japan based on what they work out, but one way or another those three vouchers need to be accounted for.

So if Vikings give 1 tech to Japan and Japan gives one voucher in exchange, then the Vikings don't lose any vouchers and Japan loses one.

If the Vikings give 1 tech to Japan and Japan gives TWO vouchers in exchange, then one voucher is spent on the trade and one is given to the Vikings to keep. So the Vikings would gain 1 voucher and Japan would lose 1 voucher.

[Robert]

Celts: Cyber, you are making yourself into a sore loser and using your power of host to hold the game over our head.

I simply can't win here.
When I do not pause the game I'm yelled at for not pausing the game.
When I do pause the game I'm yelled at for pausing the game.

Everyone: read the thing below carefully. It explains what I am going to do. If you do not care, that's perfectly ok, I fully understand. But please, if you don't care and therefore don't read, then don't comment on it either, nor on my actions that will follow

You know what, I'm going to take lead again.
I know that I am also a part in this conflict, but somebody must do it. Besides that, I am an honest man, despite that others argue that. I know that I am, there are no records that say different, despite the many times I have been accused of cheating, it always appeared that I had not.

I have done an offer to Korea: I m willing to remove a lot of armies from Knossos to make it look like the situation of 1945, as if there were no peace negotiations and no double GE move, and Korea could move first and thus attack Knossos.

Korea, you get 3 hours from now to take it or leave it.
In 3 hours I will launch the game again and I'll simply remove my proposal.
You cannot like that, but you have hijacked the game enough for now.

This is why I chose to do so:
The Judges said that the GE should be handed over and the game should go on, no reload was needed.
I have done like the judges said PLUS I have not moved/upgraded/etc. 1 turn in the Knossos area. That last thing was not needed but I did it to help Korea recover from the turn he lost due to stubborn refusing to play his turn.

Korea now complains that he should not only have had that 1-turn of not moving from my side, but should've had the 'first move' in 1945 back as well, which I now try to give him by downgrading my defence in Knossos.

I don't have to do that either, since Korea forgot that we had 1 turn of peace-negotiations in which Maya, Korea and Sparta promised to not attack each other. This happened in 1650, but without the loss of that 1 turn that would've been 1645, conclusion: there would not have been an early move for Korea in 1945 because we had an in-game cease fire. (not game-technical but diplo-technical)

In short: the claim of Korea that he should have been able to attack a less defended Knossos is NOT TRUE because:
- The judges didn't assign that (or a reload)
- 1945 would with a reload have been a turn of negotiation, not of attack
- I had already given them a 1 turn pause in my defence, voluntarily.

The reasons why I do not want to reload are:
- There are 14 other players that do not deserve another reload
- It'll give me unfair disadvantages if we reload because: a. the Maya won't make the stupid 'split his army up' mistake again b. Korea/Maya will not be stupid enough to fall for my fake peace-offer again c. Korea will not be stupid again to let my GE live to use it as a tool for peace negotiations.

Thus the combination of A. an reload is unfair and B. there is no reason for a reload and C. I have made a proposal to help Korea together made me make this decision.

You can all yell at me for doing this, but I'll tell you this: I will NOT read this thread anymore for 48 hours. If Korea accepts my proposal to lower my defence in Knossos he should just move his army next to it this turn immediately and I will then do like I promised.

I have learned my lesson, I will from now on pause the game everytime a conflict occurs.
And the Maya will be kicked from this game if they cause problems again. THis is the 3rd Maya problem in 1 game, that's enough.

That is my decision as a game leader.
I wish that it did not have to be like this, and I am fully aware that I may misuse my position now, but I don't see an alternative.

I do follow btw the judgement of the judges, since they saw no reason for a game-reload.

CyberShy

I will not visit Apolyton for 48 hours.
People who really want to contact me can do so through (poly) mail.

[Robert]

I have updated the rules according to what we meant when we discussed them during the setup of this game.
The actual rule did not reflect to this because it was formulated about 2 months after the setup and we had forgotten about some important issues.
If people have comments or improvements, please post them in the NEW org thread.

According to these rules there is currently a warning for:
- Maya
- Sparta

Next time any of these civs is ignoring a rule it'll be punished.

- 6 hours time between moving during (pre) war-time
Civilizations that are at war or want to declare war have to wait 6 hours after the turn started if they were the last of their opponent(s) to play their turn during the last turn. When all opponents have moved before those 6 hours have passed the player can play as well.

Thus, a civ at war or intending to declare war in the current turn can play their turn when:
- His opponent(s) played their last turn after he has played his last turn
- 6 hours have passed since the new turn started
- all his opponents have moved during this turn

The spirit of this rule is more important then the letter of the rule.
Key is: if a player in a (pre) war situation gets advantage because of non-turn-based gaming (where turn-based means: all players move in the same order every turn) then this will fall under the "No double move during (pre) war time" rule.

At the other side: if no damage has been done despite a double-move has been played then we will just continue playing without any corrections.
Damage is done when the player against whom a double move has been played is being disadvantaged in a (pre) war situation.

--------------------------
If any civilization violetes these rules the game will be paused and the concequences will be decided.
If damage has been done then the game will be reloaded back to the last available save on the Pitboss Server. The Pitboss Server saves every turn and keeps all saves till the game has finished. If the damage can be corrected without reloading then that should be done.
Therefore people should always continue playing their turns.

Possible penalties, besides loading the last save are:
- removing all or a % of the votes the violator receives in a certain month or all months in a certain category or all categories
- The loss of tech vouchers (a few or all)
- removed from the game
- a warning (a player can only receive warning)

This depends on the seriousness of the violation, which is not only determined by the damage being done but also by the reasons and attitude of the violater.'

[Pitboss Portugal]

Any news? it has been 3.30hrs roughly

[Robert]

Game's up again.
52 minutes untill the next turn.

[Pitboss Khmer]

Ozzy: please close this thread, let's start a VI thread.
Please remove all arguments regarding this issue from both threads.
I ask you to do that because I leave it up to you to consider if that's the right thing to do.

Ozzy, Cyber, please NEVER delete posts or threads unless they break the law.

Please do NOT delete posts. It is important Apolyton history regardless of being negative.

We are in a Democracy and we should always attempt to not 'sanitise' the truth.

Please also re-instate the "Argument" thread that Maya started way back. At the time it may have looked negative but when we view it with hindsight it will make hilarious reading and we all get a good laugh when identities are revealed. We need a good laugh!

If you do delete or keep threads/posts deleted I think the mods should be accountable to all of us and explain their intended actions before sneakily acting.

[Robert]

Argument and Debate thread.
If your post is not here anymore you can find it there.
Good suggestion Khmer

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?t=184064

[Pitboss Khmer]

Ridiculous

I speak to My Beloved people and try to raise their spirits but my Caravel has returned to port today and I now know the dreadful truth! The Khmer have betrayed me with their promises of rich lands for my people to live and prosper in if only I would follow their advice and accept their protection. No fleet at the rendevous and nought on the horizon.

Their despicable leader gave me, what he claimed to be, his favourite eunoch as a coronation gift. To minister unto my privy matters and perform my toilet. Yet this creature uttered words that seemed so true and sincere. Messages from his master himself were given promising a life of peace and plenty under the protection of the benign Khmer state. I now know this man who stands as lord over many continents is but the living re-incarnation of Pol Pot!

We fight on hoping that some fortune will come our way but the people take the re-introduction of conscription badly. I fear that when they hear news of the Khmer deceit their spirits may fail them.

I have been deceived into war and can scarse look upon myself in the mirror!

Grand Prince St. Andrei Bogolubski

ooc completely making up stuff like this is way off the target. There should have been at least some basis to this. As it stands it is total fabrication and so fanciful as to be ridiculous. I personally believe in organic storylines that stem from in-game actions, e.g. the Portuguese Caravel off Khmer coast/spy drama.

[Robert]

I think it's possible that civ X tries to safe his ass by blaming civ Y for something.
It's up to civ Y to act on that.

[Pitboss Khmer]

I think it's possible that civ X tries to safe his ass by blaming civ Y for something.
It's up to civ Y to act on that.

ooc I simply can't respond to fairy tales by making up fairy tales that I don't enjoy writing.

If Russia was going to attack Rome and wanted to involve another party they would be well advised to lay the groundwork with a plan, using junglemail/pm's posts etc.

I'll try my best

[Pitboss Khmer]

Khmer denies any involvement in Russian War

World announcement.

I didn't do it.

Suryavarman 3