Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread IV]

[OzzyKP]

Voted in character.

[Diplo Holland]

Is Danny here or anyone else interested in playing the Otts in HOTW12... Otts turn is the last to be played before the year rolls over.

[Pinchak]

I'll take over if Danny cannot be found.

PM me ALL the info I will need.

I bailed on this game when real life became crazy... but things have calmed down and I should have time to make adequate controbutions.

[OzzyKP]

I'm a bit scared your contributions would be 100% based on revenge ( ), but it'd be good to have a talented player such as yourself to help finish this game off.

[Pitboss Celts]

I've been saving most of my vouchers having half of them remaining. More vouchers would certainly be welcome. I think the bottom 5 (excluding myself) need a little more than tech though. Japan and England are very far behind having used all or nearly all of their vouchers. If I started using mine, I think I could jump up the list quite rapidly.

[OzzyKP]

Some civs just simply need to build more cities. There isn't anything we can do about that if they don't want to build settlers.

However, I'd gladly build a few settlers for a civ if they gave me a tech voucher.

[Robert]

The Celts have a point!
Tech Vouchers are worth points.
People who have been saving their tech vouchers should not get more tech vouchers because they are lower in the list.

I have made a new score-list, based on the assumption that 1 tech voucher is worth 20 points. (just an avg)
If all civs would right now spend their vouchers, the scorelist would be like:

Civ		Vouchers	Score	Adjusted score
--------------------------------------------------
khmer 		13 used		1183	1223
portugal 	12 used 	1124	1184
Rome 		11 used		956	1036
greece 		12 used		867	927
spain 		9 used		779	899
maya 		13 used		812	852
-------------------------------------------------57
metalheads	12 used		735	795
-------------------------------------------------41
Russia 		8 used		614	754
korea 		7 used		568	728
HRE 		10 used		625	725
vikings 	10 used		623	723
persia 		10 used		618	718
-------------------------------------------------40
Celts 		9 used		558	678
natives 	11 used		589	669
-------------------------------------------------90
America 	14 used		559	579
English 	13 used		512	557
-------------------------------------------------91
Japan 		15 used [DONE]	468	468
-------------------------------------------------

I have placed some lines with next to them the points between the civ above and under that specific line.

I think that those lines show some natural category-divisions.
These scores are based on now.
I suggest that we use these scores and these tech-vouchers from now on.

I like the idea of the 'voltans' instead of 'vouchers'.
I think we have two options:

4 voltans to: Japan
3 voltans to: America / England
2 voltans to: Celts / Natives
1 voltan to: Russia, Korea, HRE, Vikings, Persia

OR (and that's maybe better)

3 voltans to: Japan
2 voltans to: America / England
1 voltans to: Celts / Natives

BUT: why right now? Most civs still have vouchers.
Only Japan lacks vouchers. America and England are almost through their vouchers, but the next category: Celts / Natives have plenty vouchers to use!
Why support them with even more vouchers/voltans?

Therefor we can:
either: wait
or: just only give voltans to the lowest 3 civs (America (1 or 2), England(1 or 2), Japan(2 or 3))

I am fine with giving out vouchers or voltans.
Some 'terms' though:

- It should be a one-time things, we're not going to do it again in 100 turns.
- It's a pure OOC thing.

I'm sorry, Maya, but giving out new vouchers later in the game was already discussed earlier. I don't think that game rules or game mechanics should be a part of the voting system. What's next? Khmer saying that the Piercians should be allowed to double move against Rome because they're losing the war anyway, and then get military or diplo votes?

Not to mention that I dislike active voting campains. Nobody has done such a thing so far. Sending out PM's to civs asking for votes b/c of the vouchers they get b/c of Mayan diplomacy is bad form, imho.

But it's up to civs themselves if they want to give out votes, and to whom. And people are free to chose what they base their votes on.

[The Capo]

While I'm not strongly in favor of giving vouchers, I do support it because frankly I'd benefit from it.

I don't think vouchers equal any specific amount of points, at least not in the way you've listed it. If that were the case the Japanese would have more points. Points are just being used to rank the teams. He could just as easily have ranked it by the powergraph, or GNP or whatever. The civ-score is the most visible and general rating system there is.

Besides probably getting vouchers myself out of this I support it because I am pretty backward and was unable to expand really until now. I just got the ability to go accross the seas (partially my fault for not using so many vouchers) but now I have to settle cities on islands now (I have SIX cities, SIX, SIX, SIX!) which is going to cost me a lot of money. I'm not saying i DESERVE any vouchers, but if you think I won't vote myself some vouchers you're crazy. I suggest Japan, the Celts, and in fact the bottom nine civs do the same as well.

Not to mention that, but this helps the established powers weaken their rivals. If a civ near a rival gets a voucher give them a tech for it, prop them up. I don't really see how three, two, or one voucher is going to change much anyway. I don't know, like I said, I am biased on this issue.

[Pitboss H Roman]

Reading people's views and still thinking about this.

[Pitboss Japan]

I got an Idea lets just give Japan more vouchers

[Pitboss Rome]

I continue to be hesitantly positive about the idea of giving out some voltans, but worry about the details, the unforseen consequences, how issues of boundaries etc. can be settled given we all have self interest.

I have a different suggestion. The reason for the voucher system is, as I understand it, to stop a couple of allies dividing up the tech tree between them and giving each other everything they research. This clearly does need preventing.

Where we are now though is that we worry that if certain countries fall very far behind in tech, they will at best lose connection with the main thrust of the game, and at worst become easy pickings for attack (how long will Korea survive if the Khmer and Portuguese discover than all the oil is in Korean territory?).

So what we want is a way of keeping the weaker nations from falling behind in tech, while not adding great distortions, arguements about boundaries etc.

How about a new rule based on civ's eras. CS keeps track of which era people are in (I am sure that can be assessed or declared easily). Once the majority (8) are in an era, then no vouchers need to be spent when giving a tech of the previous era. (precise details can of course be tweaked - to avoid surprises we might say that once 8 are in an era, it is then announced that in ten turns time no vouchers are needed - this also ensures there is some advantage for the 8th country in researching the tech).

Thus if weaker countries have more powerful friends (which presumably they should given the politics and diplmacy of hte game) they should generally be able to keep up with the techs of the previous era because they can be given them for free.

Its clear and simple. Its a permanent change (no concern about 'why now' and 'woudl there be presure to do it again'), doesn't take decisions over individuals countries (where do we draw the lines about score etc.), doesn't distort nations previous choices about whether to save or spend vouchers, supports diplomacy and alliances, effectively puts a safety net under countries so they can't fall too far behind, but leaves the same incentives and dynamic for research among the technological leaders.

Is there any merit in some version of this?

[Pitboss Greece]

how long will Korea survive if the Khmer and Portuguese discover than all the oil is in Korean territory?

Hey, Korea has a mighty friend!
Sparta will never let any nation invade Korea and let them get away with it.

Ok, this is not the story thread

I get your point, I'll consider it
I think that the number of 8 is too low anyway, btw.

[Pitboss Khmer]

I just want to say that the Piercians should be allowed to double move against Rome because they're losing the war

[Pitboss Khmer]

And yes, Khmer supports the Voltan Scheme as adjusted by sensible input. Rome's might be too unwieldy.

Besides Maya needs Diplo votes

[Pitboss Maya]

Besides Maya needs Diplo votes

Damn straight!