Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Organization Thread III]

[Robert]

That is a quote from me, just a few posts ago. In which I specifically say that I don't think Rome should be punished.

This is not (just) about Rome.
It's also about the 'next civ' that may make this same mistake and that you don't want to 'warn'.

then for some reason calling it an "American" as opposed to "Dutch" approach, which to me makes absolutely no sense at all, and seems to me to be intended as some sort of insult.

Why is that an insult?
Everybody knows that there are different approaches when it comes to giving penalties and doing justice.
And eveybody knows that the American one is different then the Dutch one.

I don't see how that is an insult.

Then you say it is very clear and solid, well it is "war-time" right now, so in your mind what constitutes "war-time"? Didn't he kill some of your, oops I mean "Greece's", units a few turns ago?

Ah, you think that I'm Greece
That's funny!
It's obviously not funny that you 'give that away', what if it's true?

Anyway, I haven't been in direct combat with Rome, and as far as I know, neither is Greece or Maya. (that's at least what Rome claimed in their posts above but maybe Greece or Maya can tell if it's different).

Is there not a war going on right now? Last time I checked there was.

If I understand Rome correctly then there's officially a war but there's no actual combat. (cold war?)

And again, I don't know why you are making me out to be some sort of tyrant who wants to go around punishing people for no reason.

No, I just putted your position down as strict and putting the same penalty on everyone, cheater or mistake maker. Is that not true?
That doesn't make you a tyrant, just only someone with a different approach to punishing then me.

I just want to ensure that this doesn't happen (because it isn't supposed to) and make sure that everyone understands the rules and there is no confusion.

Your way is not going to work.
Look at the USA, very strict in their war on drugs, but there are more drugs addicts in the USA then in Holland, where there is a very tolerant dope climate.

Not to mention of course that we're not dealing with cheaters but with people who accidentily make mistakes. And it makes the game tedious if civs that aren't involved in combat even have to watch the timer that tintense.

If you have a plainly stated rule, that doesn't harm anyone, that everyone understands clearly and can follow then you simply will not enounter this issue again.

The rule was clear and now here we are again.

If you have a plainly stated rule, that doesn't harm anyone, that everyone understands clearly and can follow then you simply will not enounter this issue again.

I have not insulted America.
I've just explained the differences between the punishing system in The Netherlands and The States.
If that difference is an insult to you, then reality is an insult. I never meant it to be an insult and I don't understand how you take it as an insult. Have I said things that are not true? Is the American penalty system not based on a different approach? Is the American punishing system not harder and stricter then the Dutch approach?

The Capo, please don't read insults where there are no insults.

[Robert]

Originally posted by Pitboss Maya
There is a one word reason why the "troops seeing each other" approach will not work.

Railroads.

a railroad brings a unit into sight of another unit. And if it doesn't, then there's once again no harm.

[Pitboss America]

I do think this should be the final warning; for anybody and everybody. And that the rules are rules, and it doesn't matter whether or not anything is being done. Just wait god damn six hours into the next turn if you moved last. Its that simple. I don't know why this has to be situational. We aren't unreasonable, if you legitimately can't play at any time other than before the six hours just say so and make sure you don't take advantage, but its a pretty simple rule and there should be no excuses for breaking it.

Not sure what all the controversy is about. I thought the double move issue was settled. If during a war you have to give the first player in the sequence an opportunity to play. Metal heads and myself are in a phony war now (or so it seems while most of the continent negotiate in private) ... so that means I look at civstats see when I can play and hopefully do (if I remember ) Although not in active conflict I still try to abide by it. If the situation was reversed (and Metals were second to play) if not attacking and my opponent didn't do an aggressive move to win a battle ... I wouldn't get bent out of shape if he / she played first. I think there has to be a obvious advantage to a player exploiting a game deficiency to cry foul.

[The Capo]

There is a vast difference between a drug addicted person who habitually uses drugs and a person who plays earlier than the should in a game of civilization. I don't know why you insist on using examples like murder and drug abuse as an example of punishment. Obviously there are different degress of action, and this has nothing to do with that.

I think this situation, which thankfully is pretty much over, should be used as an example to other people. And I don't mean an example in the same way as a pubilc execution of a treasonous person, fo example , but an example of what not to do. We should make it concise so there is no question on when to move.

If you look down in the corner of your screen at the list of players and it says WAR next to one of them then if you moved last you must wait six hours into the next turn to move. That should be the rule, its that simple, there should be no considerations because as the Maya pointed out railroads change this drastically, so we shouldn't try and nitpick when its much easier and much clearer just to have an accross the board rule.

You are basically arguing, if I understand you correctly, that sometimes people make mistakes and we shouldn't punish them for doing so. I agree with this. However, granting a completely blank slate and what the Maya described as basically a "first offense pardon," is not a good way to go about this. We have had two discussions on this issue, and we maintained your policy which resulted in another breaking of the rules. I do believe that Rome erred in this matter (they were a new player and weren't around for the initial debate, or the second one) so I am perfectly fine with the idea that they didn't mean to do it. In fact I believe that they didn't mean to do it. But we should take advantage of this in order to fine-tune it, and I think we need to have a strict interpretation of it; that there should be no consideration for distance between combatants or whatever other excuse you want tp come up with. There's no reason to complicate something that should be simple.

Again, your insistance upon comparing this to a real-life crime is ridiculous, so any other time you make reference to real-life crimes I will simply ignore it.

[Robert]

The Capo, you ignore my all of my reasons and just repeat yours.
You are not discusing this item, you are preaching your opinion.

And I disagree with you for reasons I have mentioned before.
As long as you're not going to respond to my arguments I'm done with this discussion.

A discussion I didn't want to start to begin with (I asked everybody except Rome and Maya to stay out of it, but didn't want to be too harsh by removing your posts)

[Pitboss Greece]

Maya: your pm box is full.

[The Capo]

EDIT: Removed original post because it was sarcastic and probably not helpful.

All I'm trying to do is make sure we don't have to worry about this again, if you want to leave it up in the air and deal with this everytime it happens differently (which will certainly cause arguments in my opinon) then fine, go ahead. I won't say anything else.

[Pitboss Maya]

PM box cleared out. Thanks for the notification.

Regarding the double move... looks like Portugal did it to me this turn.

Are we going with the no exceptions 6 hour rule, or using the seeing each others units exception?

IMO the seeing each others units is going to get real problematic come railroads and aircraft. Not to mention what happens in a situation where two enemys see each other one turn, then next turn don't see each other, then see each other, etc...

I would really push for the 6 hour rule, no exceptions. Unless of course you like problems.

[Pitboss Japan]

What I want to know is what happens to those who violate this rule?

[Robert]

Ok, the seeing rule may be a bit problematic in some cases indeed.
But forcing nations like Sparta and Rome, who are at war for 100 turns without anything actually going on, and then force them to watch the timer all the time makes no sence either.
(and punishing somone who ignored/forgot the timer-rule but didn't cause any harm makes no sence imho either as well.)

Maybe we should keep the rule strict, but some civs can announce a break from the rule for a while. If then both warring civs agree on that, then they can ignore the timer till one of them cancels the 'break' again.

The break is automaticly ended when units see each other. (ie.: then you must logout immediately and post in the thread about that) (unless you were allowed to move)

Something like that?

[Pitboss Maya]

I would say.... "No double move restrictions unless either civ posts the request in the OOC thread"

This of course can be changed if the war goes cold, as long as both parties post agreement in the OOC thread.

[The Capo]

How about this. When war is declared the double turn rule goes into effect.

For the rule to go out of effect someone posts in the ORGANIZATION THREAD (just to keep things, well, organized). Something such as, "I ask for a moratorium on the double move rule until our forces meet." The other civ basically has to agree, if they don't agree then the double rule stays into effect, if they agree who can complain?

I think that's the best way to do it. That way there's no excuses, and you get to not use the rule, which seems to be (for some reason) what Cyber really wants.

[Robert]

Votin ends today!

[Pitboss Japan]

I have run into a problem and I have done everything I could think of to try and resolve it but nothing has worked so now I come here to see if any of you can help me. Yesterday I was playing a SP game of civ when for some reason the game just shut off and did not want to start up again. So I tried to uninstall Civ so I could reinstall it but when I tried to uninstall it I kept getting errors. I remembered seeing something like this on one of the Civfanatics threads so I tried it and I got the Civ 4 to work but It will not allow me to install BTS. Can anyone help me out?

[classical_hero]

I am in need of a replacement so if someone can find a replacement player, please PM me so that your identity is not revealed. THanks.