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Possible Diplogame Mod

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  • I've got plenty of specific suggestions for you.

    In general I think we should structure the traits according to these criteria:

    1. History – Obviously our first concern is picking a trait that “fits” with the leader/civ.
    2. New Options – Capo’s stated purpose was to pick leaders that balanced out other leaders for the civ. So new leaders should be different than existing ones.
    3. Game balance – We should also pick traits that balance out the game. We don’t want a certain leader/civ choice to be overpowered and thus an obvious choice for players (like Inca and Elizabeth are currently).
    4. Variety – We want to have a diverse and interesting set of selections for everyone.

    So with these criteria in mind I’ve got recommendations for changing the traits.

    In the regular game every trait combination is used once except these three:

    Charismatic/Creative
    Industrious/Philosophic
    Organized/Protective

    There is a very good balance reason for not putting Industrious and Philosophic together, but I think the other two were just left out. So I think it is wise to try and include those in this mod. Capo’s initial list doesn’t though, so I think it is smart to add these. Overall though the distribution of traits in stock BTS is very good and balanced. I think we should strive for the same with this mod.

    According to the list Capo posted the trait breakdown is:

    Organized---------14
    Imperialistic-------8
    Charismatic-------7
    Aggressive--------7
    Financial---------6
    Creative-----------6
    Spiritual----------5
    Industrial--------4
    Expansive--------4
    Philosophical-----4
    Protective----------1

    I think we should strive to balance this out a bit. There is no reason why organized should be so prevalent a trait. It looks though that for leaders you didn’t have a good idea about you just used Organized as a catch-all. Which, I admit, I am prone to do as well, but I deliberately tried to find other options this time.

    Also, Capo’s trait recommendations had a few duplicates, in his list he had:

    3 Aggressive/Organized combos
    3 Organized/Spiritual combos
    2 Charismatic/Financial combos
    2 Creative/Imperialistic
    2 Creative/Organized
    2 Financial/Organized
    2 Imperialistic/Industrious



    First I’ll list the leaders whose traits I like and don’t want to change:

    Ronald Reagan, America, Financial/Charismatic
    Francisco Franco, Spain, Charismatic/Protective
    Marcus Aurelius, Rome, Philosophical/Imperialistic
    Constantine, Rome, Spiritual/Organized
    Akbar the Great, India, Creative/Imperialistic
    Philip II, Spain, Creative/Imperialistic
    Tang Taizong, China, Financial/Imperialistic
    Haile Selassie, Ethiopia, Philosophical/Spiritual
    Dido, Carthage, Creative/Financial
    Harald Hardrada, Vikings, Expansive/Charismatic
    Henry VIII, England, Creative/Organized
    Maurits van Nassau, Netherlands, Aggressive/Organized
    Amenhotep III, Egypt, Industrious/Charismatic

    My changes:

    18 Rabbit, Maya, Aggressive/Industrious – Since you said this is entirely open ended, I guess someone had to build those pyramids. So… how about these traits?

    Abu Bakr, Arabia, Spiritual/Imperialistic – This seems like an obvious change. The early Arabs conquered much of the middle east. Imperialistic would be different from Saladin and would be fitting historically.

    Basil II, Byzantium, Aggressive/Expansive – Expansive instead of Imperialistic just to be different from Justinian.

    Charles V, HRE, Spiritual/Expansive – I don’t especially like Organized for Charles (cause it is everywhere). I’d honestly like Protective or Imperialistic, but Charlemagne already has those. Maybe Spiritual/Expansive for some variety (and something other than the ubiquitous organized).

    Harun al-Rashid, Arabia, Creative/Philosophical, - You said in your description of Harun that he “liked music, art and poetry”. I don’t think there is a single stronger candidate for the creative trait. Not only does it make sense historically, it is different than the other Arab leaders. During his time, Arabia was also a leader in science, so Philosophic fits very well as well. I suppose it is a toss up between that and Imperialistic as far as history goes, but Philo is certainly different from Bakr and Saladin, so I’d recommend it as an interesting alternative for the Arabs. I can’t insist strongly enough about the creative trait though. Last time we discussed traits you said you’d make him Creative.

    Prince Henry the Navigator, Portugal, Expansive/Organized – For purely balance reasons, Fin/Org is WAY too powerful for Portugal. Their UB already gives +1 commerce per ocean tile. Fin would make it +2. Plus Org would make them unstoppable. I recommend instead we go with Expansive. I know Joao already has it, but I think it fits, is balanced and having Org instead of Imp would still be something different.

    Hirohito, Japan, Financial/Imperialistic – Hirohito was around during WW2 and the invasion of China in the 30’s but he stuck around until 1989. I think Imperialist is a good representation of the wars early in his reign, but to make him distinct from Meiji, I think we should give him Financial instead of Industrious. Since post-war Japan was a booming economy. It’d provide some very interesting variety too.

    Hitler, Germany, Aggressive/Charismatic – Germany already has an Organized leader (and Org is an overused trait in your mod so far) so… I can’t think of a better candidate for the Aggressive trait.

    Ivan Grozny, Russia, Protective/Imperialistic – Russia already has an aggressive leader (Stalin) and an expansive leader (Peter). So… while it might be hard to find two totally original traits for Russia (the only ones left are Charismatic, Spiritual, Organized, Protective, and Financial) maybe we can at least have one new one. Of those 5, I think Protective fits him best. The wars he fought at the later part of his rule were definitely on the defensive as Russia was invaded from many directions. So since he had defensive and offensive war in his reign, how about Protective and Imperialistic? It fits historically and brings in a new trait to Russia (Protective).

    Itzcoatl, Aztecs, Industrious/Expansive – Since Nebuchadrezzar fits better with Industrious/Imperialistic, and since Expansive could be used more, lets switch Itzcoatl to Industrious/Expansive.

    Johan de Witt, Netherlands, Philosophical/Charismatic – He was an accomplished mathematician, so that should qualify him better than most to be Philo. He also seems to have been active in diplomacy, so Charismatic is a good fit. And Financial is already held by Willem van Oranje.

    Kim Jong-il, Korea, Protective/Organized – I know Korea already has a Protective leader, but it seems to fit better than Aggressive. Kim never attacked another country, but just fiercely guards what he has and doesn’t let anyone else in. Plus there aren’t any Protective/Organized combinations in the game.

    Masinissa of Zama, Carthage, Protective/Expansive – I’m really not sure why Carthage even needs a third leader, let alone why Masinissa was picked. It doesn’t look like he was even Carthaginian and fought against them for decades. So I’d recommend just removing him altogether, but if you want to keep him, I’d think some military traits would make sense since that is all he is known for. How about Protective & Expansive instead of Industrious and Organized.

    Emperor Meiji, Japan, Organized/Industrious – While I think Creative is under represented and Organized over represented in the mod, I’m not entirely sure if Creative fits. Meiji is noted for his modernization of Japan, so Industrious fits well and so does Organized.

    Nebuchadrezzar, Babylon, Industrious/Imperialistic(expansive) – He expanded the empire but Hammurabi already has Aggressive, so Imperialistic is a good alternative, or perhaps Expansive even. Plus, he is far more known for his building projects. He built the Hanging Gardens afterall, so Industrious fits far better than Philosophic. Last time we discussed traits you mentioned making him Industrious and Imperialist/Expansive.

    Nelson Mandela, Zulu, Philosophical/Charismatic – Charismatic seems to fit much better than the over used Organized.

    Pachacuti, Inca, Charismatic/Creative – We don’t have a charismatic/creative leader yet, and since Charismatic fits for military leaders as well, I think this would be a good choice for Pachacuti.

    Pol Pot, Khmer, Protective/Aggressive, State Property – Ugh, I don’t know what to do about him, I think in general he is a poor choice for a leader. He didn’t last long and just screwed up the entire time. So… since I think Charismatic is a bad choice for a tyrant like this, how about Agg/Pro? He was aggressive against his own people, and then was invaded by Vietnam.

    Sargon of Akkad, Sumeria, Spiritual/Aggressive – Since Charles V is already Spiritual/Expansive, how about we spice it up by giving Sargon Spiritual/Aggressive instead? Same basic concept, just more variety.

    Sundiata Keita, Mali, Charismatic/Organized, - I agree that Financial may fit, but Mansa already has Financial so we should try for something different. I think Organized represents the wealth and economy of the Mali well enough and is an interesting alternative to Financial Mansa. Also remember that Sundiata established the empire and did some conquering himself. So I recommend we go with Charismatic (you recommended the same last time we discussed it).






    Ok, so with these changes the new trait breakdown is:

    Charismatic-------9 (+2)
    Imperialistic-------8
    Organized---------7 (-7)
    Creative-----------6
    Aggressive--------6 (-1)
    Spiritual----------5
    Philosophical-----5 (+1)
    Industrial--------5 (+1)
    Expansive--------5 (+1)
    Financial---------4 (-2)
    Protective----------4 (+3)

    This looks far more balanced with no trait entirely neglected and none totally over represented.

    Also, while my list still had a few duplicate trait combos, it isn’t as much as before:

    2 Charismatic/Philosophical
    2 Charismatic/Protective
    2 Creative/Imperialistic
    2 Financial/Imperialistic


    So… I ended up changing and tweaking more than I expected, but I think this new list is far more balanced, more historical, and more entertaining a collection than before. I know I’m not helping much with the actual modding, Capo, but I really spent a lot of time analyzing the traits, looking up info on the leaders, and breaking them down into lists and such to find the best possible balance. So I hope you see this as my contribution to the ongoing mod project. I actually spent a few hours on this, so I hope everyone likes my suggestions.
    Captain of Team Apolyton - ISDG 2012

    When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah

    Comment


    • used small "b" because it wasn't a country in those days
      Bulgaria was formed in 680 AD.

      I think I know my country's history better than you!

      This is a very touchy subject for me, so please straighten your facts next time.

      Thanks!
      Last edited by Toni; October 23, 2008, 16:39.

      Comment


      • affinity for bulgarians
        I am Bulgarian and proud of my country's history, thus I felt the need to correct your false statement.

        Comment


        • Damn, good work Ozzy. I agree with everything you said there and if there are no objections I will make them happen.

          @ Toni; I'm sorry, I was referring to the modern Republic of Bulgaria, and did not realize that there were two distinct Bulgarian Empires previously and during Basil's era.

          So I'm sorry about that, I should have looked into Basil's conquests more thuroughly, but with thirty (don't just look at that list I wrote ) leaders added to the game, a mod to work on, my job, and my friends (who like to show up at my apartment unannounced), I don't exactly have the amount of time I'd like to study ancient empires.

          So I am quite sorry. Basil slayed big "B" Bulgarians.
          "Our cause is in the hands of fate. We can not guarantee success. But we can do something better; we can deserve it." -John Adams


          One Love.

          Comment


          • BTW, don't worry Toni, I'll make it up to you in the Diplo-Europe Mod.
            "Our cause is in the hands of fate. We can not guarantee success. But we can do something better; we can deserve it." -John Adams


            One Love.

            Comment


            • Sorry, one last thing. As far as Masinissa goes; you are right, he was known as a hero in Carthage for around half of his life as their cavalry commander against the Romans at Zama (he was King of Zama) but later turned his allegience to Rome and did in fact cause great damage against Carthage. I just liked the leaderhead.

              However, I have thought this over and I think I am going to switch him over to Egypt and rename him Ptolemy Soter. Someone had earlier requested a Hellenic leader of Egypt and I think this will work better than having a third Carthagine leader. Any thoughts on this?
              "Our cause is in the hands of fate. We can not guarantee success. But we can do something better; we can deserve it." -John Adams


              One Love.

              Comment


              • Capo can you list here the change you made that are for DIPLO and the changes you made whixh ar efor jsut any MP game.

                I a bit confused by the mod title and so many things that you have wodnerously added great work by the way. Wil lbe great mod., but has it addressed any of the DIPLO issues.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by The Capo
                  Sorry, one last thing. As far as Masinissa goes; you are right, he was known as a hero in Carthage for around half of his life as their cavalry commander against the Romans at Zama (he was King of Zama) but later turned his allegience to Rome and did in fact cause great damage against Carthage. I just liked the leaderhead.

                  However, I have thought this over and I think I am going to switch him over to Egypt and rename him Ptolemy Soter. Someone had earlier requested a Hellenic leader of Egypt and I think this will work better than having a third Carthagine leader. Any thoughts on this?
                  Sounds like a good plan to me.

                  For Ptolemy, I'd suggest Philosophical and Protective. Both are new traits for Egypt, and both make some historical sense. So the trait list changes to:

                  Charismatic-------9 (+2)
                  Imperialistic-------8
                  Organized---------7 (-7)
                  Creative-----------6
                  Aggressive--------6 (-1)
                  Philosophical-----6 (+2)
                  Spiritual----------5
                  Industrial--------5 (+1)
                  Expansive--------4
                  Financial---------4 (-2)
                  Protective----------4 (+3)

                  I have no idea how I added 8 traits and removed 10 traits. The math should balance, right? But I just went through and counted them over again and got the same result... very strange.
                  Captain of Team Apolyton - ISDG 2012

                  When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Pitboss Vikings
                    Capo can you list here the change you made that are for DIPLO and the changes you made whixh ar efor jsut any MP game.

                    I a bit confused by the mod title and so many things that you have wodnerously added great work by the way. Wil lbe great mod., but has it addressed any of the DIPLO issues.
                    Good question Ras.

                    Here are the changes I have made, thus far, and why I consider them good for diplogames, and thus why I am calling this the diplogame mod:

                    1) I added flavor units for the various nations in the game, the purpose behind this was to both reward and encourage in-game screen shots rather than photos found on the internet. What this will do is possibly lend more interest to the game. Remember those popular images the Greeks made in BtP? Well imagine those but in the style of Viking units, or in the style of Japanese, or even Roman units! Even Hellenic units! I think this make it more fun, and helps the player delve into the roleplaying of his civilization, even if ever so slightly. Besides it just looks a hell of a lot better.

                    2) For practically the same reason I added SEVEN new religions. This helps with roleplaying and stories. I think these first two points go to the very heart of the diplogame: the posting. It will make posting fun, more vibrant and less repetative.

                    3) I added nearly thirty new leaders and thus trait combos for the different civilizations. Which again, should result in more diverse civilization selections (theoretically), which will result in more diverse storylines/posts/role-playing. So scratch that, make it THREE reasons why the heart of the diplogame, the stories/posts, get enhanced.

                    4) I added the Inquisitor option to the game. Which means you can purge religions. Which finally means that the spread of religion will be less straight-forward and more of a political/economic tool. Now you can force people to purge certain religions, now you can control the spread of religions. Now we can witness the rise and fall of religions. The politics just got a little more interesting.

                    5) I added spy promotions and enhanced (just slightly) espionage-based buildings. Which means there will be more behind the scenes maneuvering, which gives the little guys more of an opportunity to REALLY punish their enemies without their knowlege. Now nobody is safe, you can even plant a dirty bomb in this game. Terrorism just became a reality in the Diplogame. Spies get all types of promotions that will make espionage a much bigger issue.

                    Now those are five reasons I think this mod will enhance the diplogaming experience. I don't think an argument can be made that this detracts from the diplogame at all. There are plenty of other possible things I could add to this, I have thought about the possibility of trading workers, I have thought about the possibility of adding a feature where cultural borders can change based on military victories (Dale's Combat Mod) so there can be a counter to culture-whoring. But what I am also trying to do is keep it as close to the regular game as possible, which is why I haven't added new civics and wonders.

                    I am open to suggestions though, but I want to make sure that it is accepted by the Diplogame community because this is a lot of work and I don't want the mod to be declined when it is finished. So please, if you have any ideas make them known, but we can't get upset if people disagree with our ideas, so I am trying to pull off a great balancing act here.

                    But if you have some ideas about how I can make this more of a DIPLO mod I would love to hear them.
                    "Our cause is in the hands of fate. We can not guarantee success. But we can do something better; we can deserve it." -John Adams


                    One Love.

                    Comment


                    • Thanks Capo!

                      Comment


                      • How soon will it be ready to play?

                        Comment


                        • I'd advise against adding Dale's combat mod, but I'd still like to see some changes to tech spread.
                          Captain of Team Apolyton - ISDG 2012

                          When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah

                          Comment


                          • I don't think I'm actually going to add DCM because it goes beyond what I want in the game, but it was something I considered. The tech spread issue was not discussed enough for me to go through with it, so there should be more debate on that.

                            As far as the release goes, that all depends on a few factors: the first being when the Spymod bugs get fixed, which I am not in control of but were said to be done "within a few days" of a few days ago, so hopefully that should be ready soon. The release also depends on anything else we want to add, and I think the last thing that would make this perfect for diplogames is a tech spread tool, like Ozzy described. I hoped that "within a few days" meant two to three days, but it appears it means five plus. So I'm not sure exactly when this thing will be finalized, but it will be sooner rather than later.

                            Again though, I think some playtesting needs to happen as well, and I have yet to get official volunteers to test the game. So if you are interested in getting it early, or if you want to help out please let me know.

                            Alright, in lighter news, here is a picture of Ptolemy (formerly Masinissa) with the Pharos of Alexandria in thebackground.
                            Attached Files
                            "Our cause is in the hands of fate. We can not guarantee success. But we can do something better; we can deserve it." -John Adams


                            One Love.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by The Capo
                              I don't think I'm actually going to add DCM because it goes beyond what I want in the game, but it was something I considered. The tech spread issue was not discussed enough for me to go through with it, so there should be more debate on that.
                              Lots of debate:
                              Captain of Team Apolyton - ISDG 2012

                              When I was younger I thought curfews were silly, but now as the daughter of a young woman, I appreciate them. - Rah

                              Comment


                              • Clean out your PM box Ozzy, I just wrote a really long message to you only to find out you can't get it!
                                "Our cause is in the hands of fate. We can not guarantee success. But we can do something better; we can deserve it." -John Adams


                                One Love.

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