I've got plenty of specific suggestions for you.
In general I think we should structure the traits according to these criteria:
1. History – Obviously our first concern is picking a trait that “fits” with the leader/civ.
2. New Options – Capo’s stated purpose was to pick leaders that balanced out other leaders for the civ. So new leaders should be different than existing ones.
3. Game balance – We should also pick traits that balance out the game. We don’t want a certain leader/civ choice to be overpowered and thus an obvious choice for players (like Inca and Elizabeth are currently).
4. Variety – We want to have a diverse and interesting set of selections for everyone.
So with these criteria in mind I’ve got recommendations for changing the traits.
In the regular game every trait combination is used once except these three:
Charismatic/Creative
Industrious/Philosophic
Organized/Protective
There is a very good balance reason for not putting Industrious and Philosophic together, but I think the other two were just left out. So I think it is wise to try and include those in this mod. Capo’s initial list doesn’t though, so I think it is smart to add these. Overall though the distribution of traits in stock BTS is very good and balanced. I think we should strive for the same with this mod.
According to the list Capo posted the trait breakdown is:
Organized---------14
Imperialistic-------8
Charismatic-------7
Aggressive--------7
Financial---------6
Creative-----------6
Spiritual----------5
Industrial--------4
Expansive--------4
Philosophical-----4
Protective----------1
I think we should strive to balance this out a bit. There is no reason why organized should be so prevalent a trait. It looks though that for leaders you didn’t have a good idea about you just used Organized as a catch-all. Which, I admit, I am prone to do as well, but I deliberately tried to find other options this time.
Also, Capo’s trait recommendations had a few duplicates, in his list he had:
3 Aggressive/Organized combos
3 Organized/Spiritual combos
2 Charismatic/Financial combos
2 Creative/Imperialistic
2 Creative/Organized
2 Financial/Organized
2 Imperialistic/Industrious
First I’ll list the leaders whose traits I like and don’t want to change:
Ronald Reagan, America, Financial/Charismatic
Francisco Franco, Spain, Charismatic/Protective
Marcus Aurelius, Rome, Philosophical/Imperialistic
Constantine, Rome, Spiritual/Organized
Akbar the Great, India, Creative/Imperialistic
Philip II, Spain, Creative/Imperialistic
Tang Taizong, China, Financial/Imperialistic
Haile Selassie, Ethiopia, Philosophical/Spiritual
Dido, Carthage, Creative/Financial
Harald Hardrada, Vikings, Expansive/Charismatic
Henry VIII, England, Creative/Organized
Maurits van Nassau, Netherlands, Aggressive/Organized
Amenhotep III, Egypt, Industrious/Charismatic
My changes:
18 Rabbit, Maya, Aggressive/Industrious – Since you said this is entirely open ended, I guess someone had to build those pyramids. So… how about these traits?
Abu Bakr, Arabia, Spiritual/Imperialistic – This seems like an obvious change. The early Arabs conquered much of the middle east. Imperialistic would be different from Saladin and would be fitting historically.
Basil II, Byzantium, Aggressive/Expansive – Expansive instead of Imperialistic just to be different from Justinian.
Charles V, HRE, Spiritual/Expansive – I don’t especially like Organized for Charles (cause it is everywhere). I’d honestly like Protective or Imperialistic, but Charlemagne already has those. Maybe Spiritual/Expansive for some variety (and something other than the ubiquitous organized).
Harun al-Rashid, Arabia, Creative/Philosophical, - You said in your description of Harun that he “liked music, art and poetry”. I don’t think there is a single stronger candidate for the creative trait. Not only does it make sense historically, it is different than the other Arab leaders. During his time, Arabia was also a leader in science, so Philosophic fits very well as well. I suppose it is a toss up between that and Imperialistic as far as history goes, but Philo is certainly different from Bakr and Saladin, so I’d recommend it as an interesting alternative for the Arabs. I can’t insist strongly enough about the creative trait though. Last time we discussed traits you said you’d make him Creative.
Prince Henry the Navigator, Portugal, Expansive/Organized – For purely balance reasons, Fin/Org is WAY too powerful for Portugal. Their UB already gives +1 commerce per ocean tile. Fin would make it +2. Plus Org would make them unstoppable. I recommend instead we go with Expansive. I know Joao already has it, but I think it fits, is balanced and having Org instead of Imp would still be something different.
Hirohito, Japan, Financial/Imperialistic – Hirohito was around during WW2 and the invasion of China in the 30’s but he stuck around until 1989. I think Imperialist is a good representation of the wars early in his reign, but to make him distinct from Meiji, I think we should give him Financial instead of Industrious. Since post-war Japan was a booming economy. It’d provide some very interesting variety too.
Hitler, Germany, Aggressive/Charismatic – Germany already has an Organized leader (and Org is an overused trait in your mod so far) so… I can’t think of a better candidate for the Aggressive trait.
Ivan Grozny, Russia, Protective/Imperialistic – Russia already has an aggressive leader (Stalin) and an expansive leader (Peter). So… while it might be hard to find two totally original traits for Russia (the only ones left are Charismatic, Spiritual, Organized, Protective, and Financial) maybe we can at least have one new one. Of those 5, I think Protective fits him best. The wars he fought at the later part of his rule were definitely on the defensive as Russia was invaded from many directions. So since he had defensive and offensive war in his reign, how about Protective and Imperialistic? It fits historically and brings in a new trait to Russia (Protective).
Itzcoatl, Aztecs, Industrious/Expansive – Since Nebuchadrezzar fits better with Industrious/Imperialistic, and since Expansive could be used more, lets switch Itzcoatl to Industrious/Expansive.
Johan de Witt, Netherlands, Philosophical/Charismatic – He was an accomplished mathematician, so that should qualify him better than most to be Philo. He also seems to have been active in diplomacy, so Charismatic is a good fit. And Financial is already held by Willem van Oranje.
Kim Jong-il, Korea, Protective/Organized – I know Korea already has a Protective leader, but it seems to fit better than Aggressive. Kim never attacked another country, but just fiercely guards what he has and doesn’t let anyone else in. Plus there aren’t any Protective/Organized combinations in the game.
Masinissa of Zama, Carthage, Protective/Expansive – I’m really not sure why Carthage even needs a third leader, let alone why Masinissa was picked. It doesn’t look like he was even Carthaginian and fought against them for decades. So I’d recommend just removing him altogether, but if you want to keep him, I’d think some military traits would make sense since that is all he is known for. How about Protective & Expansive instead of Industrious and Organized.
Emperor Meiji, Japan, Organized/Industrious – While I think Creative is under represented and Organized over represented in the mod, I’m not entirely sure if Creative fits. Meiji is noted for his modernization of Japan, so Industrious fits well and so does Organized.
Nebuchadrezzar, Babylon, Industrious/Imperialistic(expansive) – He expanded the empire but Hammurabi already has Aggressive, so Imperialistic is a good alternative, or perhaps Expansive even. Plus, he is far more known for his building projects. He built the Hanging Gardens afterall, so Industrious fits far better than Philosophic. Last time we discussed traits you mentioned making him Industrious and Imperialist/Expansive.
Nelson Mandela, Zulu, Philosophical/Charismatic – Charismatic seems to fit much better than the over used Organized.
Pachacuti, Inca, Charismatic/Creative – We don’t have a charismatic/creative leader yet, and since Charismatic fits for military leaders as well, I think this would be a good choice for Pachacuti.
Pol Pot, Khmer, Protective/Aggressive, State Property – Ugh, I don’t know what to do about him, I think in general he is a poor choice for a leader. He didn’t last long and just screwed up the entire time. So… since I think Charismatic is a bad choice for a tyrant like this, how about Agg/Pro? He was aggressive against his own people, and then was invaded by Vietnam.
Sargon of Akkad, Sumeria, Spiritual/Aggressive – Since Charles V is already Spiritual/Expansive, how about we spice it up by giving Sargon Spiritual/Aggressive instead? Same basic concept, just more variety.
Sundiata Keita, Mali, Charismatic/Organized, - I agree that Financial may fit, but Mansa already has Financial so we should try for something different. I think Organized represents the wealth and economy of the Mali well enough and is an interesting alternative to Financial Mansa. Also remember that Sundiata established the empire and did some conquering himself. So I recommend we go with Charismatic (you recommended the same last time we discussed it).
Ok, so with these changes the new trait breakdown is:
Charismatic-------9 (+2)
Imperialistic-------8
Organized---------7 (-7)
Creative-----------6
Aggressive--------6 (-1)
Spiritual----------5
Philosophical-----5 (+1)
Industrial--------5 (+1)
Expansive--------5 (+1)
Financial---------4 (-2)
Protective----------4 (+3)
This looks far more balanced with no trait entirely neglected and none totally over represented.
Also, while my list still had a few duplicate trait combos, it isn’t as much as before:
2 Charismatic/Philosophical
2 Charismatic/Protective
2 Creative/Imperialistic
2 Financial/Imperialistic
So… I ended up changing and tweaking more than I expected, but I think this new list is far more balanced, more historical, and more entertaining a collection than before. I know I’m not helping much with the actual modding, Capo, but I really spent a lot of time analyzing the traits, looking up info on the leaders, and breaking them down into lists and such to find the best possible balance. So I hope you see this as my contribution to the ongoing mod project. I actually spent a few hours on this, so I hope everyone likes my suggestions.
In general I think we should structure the traits according to these criteria:
1. History – Obviously our first concern is picking a trait that “fits” with the leader/civ.
2. New Options – Capo’s stated purpose was to pick leaders that balanced out other leaders for the civ. So new leaders should be different than existing ones.
3. Game balance – We should also pick traits that balance out the game. We don’t want a certain leader/civ choice to be overpowered and thus an obvious choice for players (like Inca and Elizabeth are currently).
4. Variety – We want to have a diverse and interesting set of selections for everyone.
So with these criteria in mind I’ve got recommendations for changing the traits.
In the regular game every trait combination is used once except these three:
Charismatic/Creative
Industrious/Philosophic
Organized/Protective
There is a very good balance reason for not putting Industrious and Philosophic together, but I think the other two were just left out. So I think it is wise to try and include those in this mod. Capo’s initial list doesn’t though, so I think it is smart to add these. Overall though the distribution of traits in stock BTS is very good and balanced. I think we should strive for the same with this mod.
According to the list Capo posted the trait breakdown is:
Organized---------14
Imperialistic-------8
Charismatic-------7
Aggressive--------7
Financial---------6
Creative-----------6
Spiritual----------5
Industrial--------4
Expansive--------4
Philosophical-----4
Protective----------1
I think we should strive to balance this out a bit. There is no reason why organized should be so prevalent a trait. It looks though that for leaders you didn’t have a good idea about you just used Organized as a catch-all. Which, I admit, I am prone to do as well, but I deliberately tried to find other options this time.
Also, Capo’s trait recommendations had a few duplicates, in his list he had:
3 Aggressive/Organized combos
3 Organized/Spiritual combos
2 Charismatic/Financial combos
2 Creative/Imperialistic
2 Creative/Organized
2 Financial/Organized
2 Imperialistic/Industrious
First I’ll list the leaders whose traits I like and don’t want to change:
Ronald Reagan, America, Financial/Charismatic
Francisco Franco, Spain, Charismatic/Protective
Marcus Aurelius, Rome, Philosophical/Imperialistic
Constantine, Rome, Spiritual/Organized
Akbar the Great, India, Creative/Imperialistic
Philip II, Spain, Creative/Imperialistic
Tang Taizong, China, Financial/Imperialistic
Haile Selassie, Ethiopia, Philosophical/Spiritual
Dido, Carthage, Creative/Financial
Harald Hardrada, Vikings, Expansive/Charismatic
Henry VIII, England, Creative/Organized
Maurits van Nassau, Netherlands, Aggressive/Organized
Amenhotep III, Egypt, Industrious/Charismatic
My changes:
18 Rabbit, Maya, Aggressive/Industrious – Since you said this is entirely open ended, I guess someone had to build those pyramids. So… how about these traits?
Abu Bakr, Arabia, Spiritual/Imperialistic – This seems like an obvious change. The early Arabs conquered much of the middle east. Imperialistic would be different from Saladin and would be fitting historically.
Basil II, Byzantium, Aggressive/Expansive – Expansive instead of Imperialistic just to be different from Justinian.
Charles V, HRE, Spiritual/Expansive – I don’t especially like Organized for Charles (cause it is everywhere). I’d honestly like Protective or Imperialistic, but Charlemagne already has those. Maybe Spiritual/Expansive for some variety (and something other than the ubiquitous organized).
Harun al-Rashid, Arabia, Creative/Philosophical, - You said in your description of Harun that he “liked music, art and poetry”. I don’t think there is a single stronger candidate for the creative trait. Not only does it make sense historically, it is different than the other Arab leaders. During his time, Arabia was also a leader in science, so Philosophic fits very well as well. I suppose it is a toss up between that and Imperialistic as far as history goes, but Philo is certainly different from Bakr and Saladin, so I’d recommend it as an interesting alternative for the Arabs. I can’t insist strongly enough about the creative trait though. Last time we discussed traits you said you’d make him Creative.
Prince Henry the Navigator, Portugal, Expansive/Organized – For purely balance reasons, Fin/Org is WAY too powerful for Portugal. Their UB already gives +1 commerce per ocean tile. Fin would make it +2. Plus Org would make them unstoppable. I recommend instead we go with Expansive. I know Joao already has it, but I think it fits, is balanced and having Org instead of Imp would still be something different.
Hirohito, Japan, Financial/Imperialistic – Hirohito was around during WW2 and the invasion of China in the 30’s but he stuck around until 1989. I think Imperialist is a good representation of the wars early in his reign, but to make him distinct from Meiji, I think we should give him Financial instead of Industrious. Since post-war Japan was a booming economy. It’d provide some very interesting variety too.
Hitler, Germany, Aggressive/Charismatic – Germany already has an Organized leader (and Org is an overused trait in your mod so far) so… I can’t think of a better candidate for the Aggressive trait.
Ivan Grozny, Russia, Protective/Imperialistic – Russia already has an aggressive leader (Stalin) and an expansive leader (Peter). So… while it might be hard to find two totally original traits for Russia (the only ones left are Charismatic, Spiritual, Organized, Protective, and Financial) maybe we can at least have one new one. Of those 5, I think Protective fits him best. The wars he fought at the later part of his rule were definitely on the defensive as Russia was invaded from many directions. So since he had defensive and offensive war in his reign, how about Protective and Imperialistic? It fits historically and brings in a new trait to Russia (Protective).
Itzcoatl, Aztecs, Industrious/Expansive – Since Nebuchadrezzar fits better with Industrious/Imperialistic, and since Expansive could be used more, lets switch Itzcoatl to Industrious/Expansive.
Johan de Witt, Netherlands, Philosophical/Charismatic – He was an accomplished mathematician, so that should qualify him better than most to be Philo. He also seems to have been active in diplomacy, so Charismatic is a good fit. And Financial is already held by Willem van Oranje.
Kim Jong-il, Korea, Protective/Organized – I know Korea already has a Protective leader, but it seems to fit better than Aggressive. Kim never attacked another country, but just fiercely guards what he has and doesn’t let anyone else in. Plus there aren’t any Protective/Organized combinations in the game.
Masinissa of Zama, Carthage, Protective/Expansive – I’m really not sure why Carthage even needs a third leader, let alone why Masinissa was picked. It doesn’t look like he was even Carthaginian and fought against them for decades. So I’d recommend just removing him altogether, but if you want to keep him, I’d think some military traits would make sense since that is all he is known for. How about Protective & Expansive instead of Industrious and Organized.
Emperor Meiji, Japan, Organized/Industrious – While I think Creative is under represented and Organized over represented in the mod, I’m not entirely sure if Creative fits. Meiji is noted for his modernization of Japan, so Industrious fits well and so does Organized.
Nebuchadrezzar, Babylon, Industrious/Imperialistic(expansive) – He expanded the empire but Hammurabi already has Aggressive, so Imperialistic is a good alternative, or perhaps Expansive even. Plus, he is far more known for his building projects. He built the Hanging Gardens afterall, so Industrious fits far better than Philosophic. Last time we discussed traits you mentioned making him Industrious and Imperialist/Expansive.
Nelson Mandela, Zulu, Philosophical/Charismatic – Charismatic seems to fit much better than the over used Organized.
Pachacuti, Inca, Charismatic/Creative – We don’t have a charismatic/creative leader yet, and since Charismatic fits for military leaders as well, I think this would be a good choice for Pachacuti.
Pol Pot, Khmer, Protective/Aggressive, State Property – Ugh, I don’t know what to do about him, I think in general he is a poor choice for a leader. He didn’t last long and just screwed up the entire time. So… since I think Charismatic is a bad choice for a tyrant like this, how about Agg/Pro? He was aggressive against his own people, and then was invaded by Vietnam.
Sargon of Akkad, Sumeria, Spiritual/Aggressive – Since Charles V is already Spiritual/Expansive, how about we spice it up by giving Sargon Spiritual/Aggressive instead? Same basic concept, just more variety.
Sundiata Keita, Mali, Charismatic/Organized, - I agree that Financial may fit, but Mansa already has Financial so we should try for something different. I think Organized represents the wealth and economy of the Mali well enough and is an interesting alternative to Financial Mansa. Also remember that Sundiata established the empire and did some conquering himself. So I recommend we go with Charismatic (you recommended the same last time we discussed it).
Ok, so with these changes the new trait breakdown is:
Charismatic-------9 (+2)
Imperialistic-------8
Organized---------7 (-7)
Creative-----------6
Aggressive--------6 (-1)
Spiritual----------5
Philosophical-----5 (+1)
Industrial--------5 (+1)
Expansive--------5 (+1)
Financial---------4 (-2)
Protective----------4 (+3)
This looks far more balanced with no trait entirely neglected and none totally over represented.
Also, while my list still had a few duplicate trait combos, it isn’t as much as before:
2 Charismatic/Philosophical
2 Charismatic/Protective
2 Creative/Imperialistic
2 Financial/Imperialistic
So… I ended up changing and tweaking more than I expected, but I think this new list is far more balanced, more historical, and more entertaining a collection than before. I know I’m not helping much with the actual modding, Capo, but I really spent a lot of time analyzing the traits, looking up info on the leaders, and breaking them down into lists and such to find the best possible balance. So I hope you see this as my contribution to the ongoing mod project. I actually spent a few hours on this, so I hope everyone likes my suggestions.
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