Beyond the Pit [Pitboss Diplomacy Game] [Tech Trade Thread]

[Pitboss Vikings]

yes unforutnalty on this continent seems the tech leaders only want trades not gifts.

They enforce on the smaller civs that they must give a voucher in return for techs.

Oh to have started on the other continent. Oh well jsut 2 years to go...

[Pitboss Maya]

When you consider how many turns/beakers it takes to get a tech, vouchers are worth MORE then their weight in gold so to speak.

[Pitboss Vikings]

exactly. so to give a voucher to a freind for one tech is a bargain to the person giving the tech.

[Pitboss Natives]

Originally posted by Pitboss Vikings
exactly. so to give a voucher to a freind for one tech is a bargain to the person giving the tech.

Well, I have to pipe-up here:

My dear King of Oldonia, did you forget that my nation traded 4 techs to your fine nation in return for only 2 tech vouchers?!?

So on your mindset of :

to give a voucher to a freind for one tech is a bargain to the person giving the tech.

I have to ask, how would this play out with our last trade of 2-for-1??? How in the heck do I make out from it?!?

[Pitboss Vikings]

your calculation is exact, one voucher is worth two techs at least so you did a fair and equitable trade.

the others demanding one voucher per tech are the ones getting a bargain.

so please dont get me wrong , i truly appreciate that out of al lthe deals so far brokered, yours to me is the most equitable for both sides.

So please continue to pipe up i like the fact your piping up again shows proof of my statements.

[Pitboss Rome]

Wait what?!?


This makes no sense, one voucher per tech profits the civ how? By making the other civs stronger and not getting anything the civ is in a weaker position.

A tech voucher is a right to trade one tech.
When a civ gives a tech it uses up one such right, by getting a voucher from the other civ it just breaks even.

[Pitboss Rome]

Also I'm confused why is Wyandot giving you vouchers like that, they have the fewest on Terra. This will hurt them immensely in the later game.

[Pitboss Rome]

Originally posted by Pitboss Maya
When you consider how many turns/beakers it takes to get a tech, vouchers are worth MORE then their weight in gold so to speak.

In the long term yes.


So the best strategy for every civ is to not use up any tech trades.


A civ getting a tech for a voucher gets a great deal let me explain why.

In a normal trade a tech is traded for a tech.
Both parties advance, both use up vouchers.

In a voucher for tech trade.
One party advances, one uses up voucher.
The other party is in the same situation as before.

A voucher for tech trade is like the civ giving the voucher participation in a tech trade with a fictional civilization. They don't give a tech, so they don't leak knowledge to the rest of the world.

The other party gets no new tech and now has a more advanced opponent.


Your argument is that the weaker civ still uses up a valuable voucher. But the truth is that a voucher is no good if you are too backward to give tech. The poor civs need to make a strategic choice. Just like giving a tech in exchange for another is a strategic choice
And this is a strategy game.


Now the civ that gets two vouchers for a tech is an exploiter and is taking advantage of the weaker party. I can't imagine a situation where the extra voucher is worth it to the poor civ.

[Pitboss Vikings]

the voucher is invaluable to a larger civ in that it can then trade that to antoher leading civ for a better tech,

The low civ gets the out of date techs the leading civ gets the new techs

So vouchers are worth a lot.

Two old techs that everyone else has for one voucher is a fair deal.

One voucher for the latest tech that hardly anyone has is good deal.

But they are all deals not gifts.

[Heraclitus]

Originally posted by Pitboss Vikings

Two old techs that everyone else has for one voucher is a fair deal.

I will try to explain this. Slowly.

By giving two tech the civ in question has used up 2 vouchers.

It then got a single voucher in trade.


The NET result is one voucher less. This helps the advance civ get advance tech how?


By giving one tech to the civ in question has used up 1 vouches. It then got a single voucher in trade.


The NET result is the same as before the "trade". Again, this helps the advance civ get advance tech how?


Do I need to explain 1+1 too? [House off]

[Pitboss Vikings]

ok because you have no idea of reality.


By trading ONE tech for ONE voucher each time a trade occurs. the advanced civ is not using any of his vouchers always remains at 15.

The lower civ is forced to give up one voucher for each tech. This means over the life of the game the bottom civ can onyl ever get 15 TECHS from other civs.

Now another civ , number 2 civ in world, makes a breakthru, guess what the no 1 civ can now freely trade with the number 2 and get a tech, but hte bottom civ is broke no vouchers left so he is forced to remain behind .

This rule was supposed to help the lower civs get techs. but once the vouchers used, and their are only 15 of them. how will they get techs then.

House is not as clever as he seems to think he is once the script writers are on strike

[Robert]

Vikings: both the top-civ and the bottom-civ can 'get' 15 techs. Without the voucher system only the top-civs can 'get' 15 techs.

When a top-civ gives a tech to a bottom-civ he gains nothing. He only loses a voucher.
That's why he most probably won't bother giving away techs to bottom-civs, weren't it for the fact the he gets a voucher.

[Pitboss Vikings]

cyber if DIPLO come sdown to who the best palyers are then we will lose a number of DIPLO members.

I have played a number of DIPLO game and no one has ever held back in GIFTING techs to lower civs never.

In one game alone i recieved well over half my techs from GIFTS.

Now we are limiting most of the bottom CIVS to only 15 gifts of techs becasue for each "GIFT" they must actualyl purchase it by means of a voucher.

So this whole voucher system, supposedly put in to prevent long term alliances, is not preventing long term friendships and open trades between the top civs but simply limits to 15 the numberof techs the lower civs get..

The culmination of this is that the good players will simply get bigger and the not so good player will lose interest becasue he wont recieve the help he needs to maintain some competetive edge with other civs

Diplo was supposed to allow good and bad players to play in the same game.

This is only possible by the genrous nature of the clever players.

But they cant be genrous if the bottom civ has no VOUCHERS left.

Please explain how this is supposed to work

I think most of the rules are put in place by the better players with little actual thought put in from lower ability palyers.

Once my vouchers are gone, how do i get TECHS !!!!!!!!!!

[deity]

The whole reason for the voucher system is to provide a mechanism to support the bottom civs.

Let's say a bottom civ has no tech it can trade because it's backward.

BUT it has 15 vouchers.

A top civ has a tech to give to the backward nation.

(Normally gifts would be rare in a competetive game although it happens - e.g. Wyandot)

But because the backward civ has 15 vouchers it allows for the top civ to gift a tech (game mechanics-wise) and receive a voucher in return (game rules).

In other words a tech that is unlikely to be gifted outright yields a tech for the botton civ and status quo for the top civ.

Go figure - it works.

[Pinchak]

This rule was supposed to help the lower civs get techs. but once the vouchers used, and their are only 15 of them. how will they get techs then.

Once my vouchers are gone, how do i get TECHS !!!!!!!!!!

Research them like everyone else?


As a side note, it is most interesting to see how players use these vouchers. Some burn through them fast, hoping to gain an early advantage that will carry them through the end game. Others are more conservative in using them, most likely waiting until their value increases.

In my opinion, a mixed approach is best. Early advantages can give you an edge (if you trade for the right techs), but vouchers increase tremendously as the game progresses, both because of scarcity and increased beaker values.

For the record Raz, I have gifted a tech in this game for political reasons... so yes, charity does still exist. Your view of how every tech deal is a 1 for 1 is a very simplistic assessment.

Learn to think "beyond the voucher".

Did i just say that? Someone slap me.