Beyond the Pit - Argument Thread

[Toni]

Get that worker back, after all Maya has a exp trait he can always build some workers quick if he wants. Korea needs that worker more than you Maya. The sooner we fix this the sooner we all can go back to our small corners of the world and lead our people.

And as CS said \follow the 1/3 timer rule for double moves please.

It is simple.

[Rasputin]

ahhh all this issues.


I feel like we are dealing with the old EYES of NIGHT issues.

Brings back memories.....

[The Capo]

I almost had a heart attack, someone actually agreed with me.

Anyone know anything about the flag thing I mentioned earlier?

[Pitboss Maya]

I'm going to make this short because I just got done driving 6 hours and i have to get up in 5.

you should have the stones to do it with your real log-in.

I can't because to do so would break anon. But rest assured, the fact that I am anon doesn't change a thing, I would write the same things with my real log in if i could (and would probably have some better examples to reference).

NOW, I will honestly say that I regret lumping people into neat little catagorys in my "guide". Just as with real life stereotypes, not eveyone who fits the base group fits the stereotype. The conspericy spin perhaps was a bit much, but damn, when I look at how differently certain situations are handled I can't help but wonder sometimes.

In all honestly, my hostiltiy toward veteran players in this game, and the motivation behind the "guide" was fueled by Ozzys steadfast prediction that a vet would win this game based on past game victors. (which isn't going to happen btw )

Without breaking anon, I pegged Korea as a veteran, and one that was right next to me. Hence, early hostilitys.

Now, the double move thing has been nulled publicly, but the no story beforehand is now being brought up. My first story post decribed the Mayan as a "warlike people". I also had my warrior walking the korean boarder for many turns before moving in. This in my mind was satisfactory warning.

@ Korea, I may be willing to make a deal in good faith to bury the hatchet, but I cannot put it together right now (need sleep). Look for a email to your plomp box.

In what category would you place me in Maya

Veteran, I am quite sure I know your idenity.

[The Capo]

You could have written your noob/pro/vet thing without using your maya log-in. That's what I was talking about.

[Robert]

I feel like we are dealing with the old EYES of NIGHT issues.

Sssst, you may wake him up by calling his name!

Regardless of who is stronger, negotiations were done because of the unfair advantage the Mayans obtained.

The unfair advantage was that the Mayans got a worker in times of confusion. Therefor the worker has to be returned.

The fact that the Mayans are stronger (At this moment) is not becuase of an unfair advantage, but because of a stupid move by the Coreans.

[Pitboss Vikings]

ah but he stil lthinks vets are the good players, vets are surely jsut the oldtimers and players liek the capo and myself whilst never in the top civs , and usualy the ones much lower down, are stil lveterans of the DIPLO style. We have played many a game and enjoyed the social inter action despite being the meat in the sandwich of many of Deitys and Ozzys and others schemes.

Having said that, there was a case in play in HOTW2 that if just one, just a single one of the major palyers had taken the time to negotiate with my poor little civ, it would have been the inroad to crippling the seemingly unstoppable Australians. But Drake was just focused on himself and didnt want to stop his development to go to war with Deity.

A lesson learnt i think.

[Pitboss Persia]

Originally posted by Pitboss Maya

Veteran, I am quite sure I know your idenity.

Well, if you think i am a veteran, you are completely wrong

[deity]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
While I very much disagree with the Mayan's cynical opinion of diplogamers (of course I'm a vet, so he predicted I'd disagree) I think I am much more disappointed in Korea.

Assuming Korea is Deity then I think the bigger cheater, the bigger liar, and the bigger violator of our trust is Deity. Before this game started we agreed that three vets: Deity, Toni and I would refrain from picking Fin & Ind civs because they give an uneven benefit in diplogames that is taken advantage of by highly skilled players. Through the use of these traits Toni, Deity and I have been on top in pretty much every single diplogame.

I think it is entirely desirable for the best players to handicap themselves to create a more even playing field and thus ensure a more competitive (and fun) game. These games get incredibly dull and predictable with the same people coming out on top every single game. So I thought it was entirely reasonable that we take this small step to try and handicap Toni, Deity and I.

Toni, Deity and I all agreed to it.

Then Toni & Deity picked a Fin or an Ind civ.

I made a fuss and we gave them time to repick. If the accusations are true that Korea is Deity that means that he either didn't repick (and lied) or repicked a Fin civ on purpose (also lied).

That I think is far more deceitful and damaging to the game than the inconsequential 'double-move' that the Mayans did. I am quite upset over it actually. It really seems to be a low, petty move if this is the case. And an example of what the Mayans are talking about of players who will win at any cost no matter how many corners have to be cut and how many game rules need to be manipulated to do so.

Frankly I wouldn't lose any sleep if Greece & the Mayans eliminated Korea right now. I don't really want to play with someone who would so blatantly lie to us and disrupt the balance of the game for personal gain.

I think Cyber's definition of a vet is far more apt. Though I don't know who I'd put into that category. I think a good diplogamer puts the game above himself and his own victory. This seems to be a very rare trait however. Much rarer than I'd like to see.

Not that I want to turn this thread into trying to defend myself, I have done many things consciously over the years to handicap myself unilaterally. For one, I consider Fin to be an overpowered trait and never picked it (except once when I was one of the last people to pick a civ and there weren't any other good options left). Also, I'll take more risks in the game than players like Toni or Deity do. As the Arabs in HOTW7 I went to war with many players because it fit my storyline to do so. And because it made the game more enjoyable for everyone having some bad guy to hate and fear. Plus, wars are just damn interesting in general. I think Mongolia has done a great job of this in HOTW12 and I respect them highly for it.

Because the surest way to win these games is to never make waves, never cross other big powers. Just quietly build and expand. Deity & Toni are expert builders. They are also very generous too. They help out everyone. This isn't done just for charity, this is done so no one has any motive to attack them. Look at HOTW9 where Toni built up like an 8 civ alliance. And Deity's OOC whining in HOTW12 that he was always being good, how dare anyone attack him.

I try to make waves. I roll the dice and get into wars. Wars are not only costly if you lose, but can be costly if you win too. The amount of effort you put into making troops and taking considerable losses is rarely compensated by whatever loot you get for winning. Wars also make bad blood and future enemies. But again, this is part of the fun of diplogames. Part of the fun I think some of the "vets" miss out on.

I also roll the dice in other ways. In HOTW5 (even though everyone thinks it is stupid) I held an IC contest to see who would win the hand of my princess and thus which civ would be my ally in the game. I really did open it up to everyone and I would have faithfully allied with anyone who won the contest. Sadly most people blew it off and whined later that I allied with the civ who won it. But I also will hold elections at critical moments in the game and allow my fate to be decided by people in a poll. In fact in HOTW7 (the game everyone somewhat rightfully complained about my staying allied with Toni all game) one of the poll options would have resulted in me allying with Deity and starting a full scale assault against Toni. Heck, I even voted for that option, but few others did. I abided by the result of the poll, but my game could have gone radically different.

Also in HOTW7 I picked the Arabs, who I think are a pretty lame civ for diplogames. The protective trait is pretty lame imho and while I love spiritual to death, the UB and UU for the Arabs is also pretty weak. But I picked them because of roleplaying potential and the fun of it, I didn't just pick the civ I thought I'd be most likely to win with. Or I would have gone with someone like the Inca (who get picked in every single game.. usually by the same people).

Also, CS mentions how Deity was a small civ in HOTW5 and he stuck with it anyway. Yes, he did. But he didn't stay a small civ. He ended up being one of the best civs in the game and nearly won. Why? Well I think a big part of it was because I again handicapped myself. I was the top civ, India, in that game and if I wanted to could have gone and gobbled up a lot of land in the New World and stopped smaller civs from getting a piece. Same with HOTW7. But in both games I decided that the New World was a great opportunity for smaller civs to catch up in a big way with lots of new land. So I, as a more established civ, wouldn't try to grab much New World land. Sadly not all civs work this way.

I'm not just saying all this stuff to say "oh I'm so great, Deity & Toni suck" but to say that these are the types of things us vets need to do to try and create a fair game where we don't have all sorts of OOC *****fests. It isn't good for the game at all to have the same people on top every single game. I stressed this emphatically before this game started and that is why I pushed strongly to stop the vets from picking Fin & Ind traits. I handicap myself usually and knew that the others would *never* handicap themselves. They'd do whatever it takes to win. So I figured it was time to create a rule to try and ensure balance.

We agreed on the rule after much discussion and I am very upset to see that it may have been dishonestly ignored after all.

I'm not perfect though. I admit that I probably shouldn't have stayed allied with Toni all game in HOTW7. I was seriously looking into attacking him though towards the end, but that's still no excuse.

If Vet civs don't handicap themselves intentionally then there is only one way to take them down. Attack them early. When I played England (HOTW9?) the Zulu rushed me very early. It crippled me all game. Maya is right, I did whine OOC about that. But it was because, I felt, they took it too far and were seeking to permanently cripple me. Permanently crippling a civ isn't allowed from any civ at any stage in the game. But attacking me early and setting me back, that I think was a brilliant idea, and what the Maya are trying to do here. I don't think it will cripple Korea, but set them back? Sure. And good.

Maybe I'm just guilty of seeing it as a violation of the rules when it is done to me and ok when it is done to someone else. Maybe I'm a hypocrite as Maya would suggest. But I think I have a pretty fair perspective on this game and have always, as much as possible, tried to increase the balance of the game instead of unbalance it. If more people tried this then perhaps we wouldn't have these OOC issues all the time.

And again, for those of you fixated on the double move issue, it didn't give the Mayans any strategic advantage in this case. If it had I would feel much differently. It is a red herring. The Mayans could have done the exact same thing without violating the double-move rule (and yes it was agreed upon) and people would still be whining about what they did.

I think the far bigger cheat though was Deity (assuming again he is Korea) flat-out lying to all of us by saying he picked a non-Fin civ and picking one anyway. I think there should be strict consequences for that.

My goodness!

When people accuse ozzy of cheating I stand up for him ans say he is the most honourable player around.

You must have a big grudge against me ozzy.

Are we still having that coffee in DC one of these years... around the time this diplo game ends might be appropriate... we hope to do our next world trip in 2010...

[OzzyKP]

I DON'T have a grudge against you. The biggest part of that post is me complaining about you IF you picked Korea after all that we had discussed. If you aren't in fact Korea then you have no fear about much of what I said.

I do think, and I have said it in the past, that there is a remarkably consistent pattern of diplogames being won by you, me, and Toni. That's just a fact. I don't remotely think that any of us have been cheating or manipulating the rules or doing anything else Maya accuses us of. I think we're just really fricken good.

But because we're really fricken good and dominate every single one of these games that gives us an extra responsibility to try and even the playing field to encourage a competitive, balanced and fun game for everyone. My lament is that I have at least tried to handicap myself for just such reasons, but you and Toni never have. You seem to be more focused on in-game victory than anyone else.

This is another motivation for me trying to create the diplovictory score chart that will reward players like Capo and Raz who are both good diplomats and good storytellers but who really suck at the actual game. It is slow to change people's habits though in the game. I think until we can incorporate the voting into the game itself and have the results show up in the score then it'll be difficult for people to really accept it in their gut.

So to be perfectly clear in all my years playing with you Deity I have NEVER remotely suspected you were cheating or manipulating the rules. That is why I'd be so disappointed if you turned out to be Korea cause that would be a really big deceit for a very honorable player. I've never remotely suspected Toni of cheating or manipulating the rules either.

But both of you are very good players and are solely focused on winning and I think that is to the detriment of the game.

Hopefully with 18 players in this game we'll see the Toni/Deity/Ozzy axis broken up finally. As Maya suspects. But I'm not counting on it.


For the record, the only three civs whose identity I am sure of at this point are the Vikings, England, and Maya. I do know some factors that could be contributing to Maya's behavior and their assessment of diplogamers and "veterans" but I don't want to break anon so I haven't and won't refer to specific examples from past games that may be feeding his cynicism. I just hope he takes what I've said (and what I've been saying consistently) to heart.

[Robert]

The biggest part of that post is me complaining about you IF you picked Korea after all that we had discussed.

"If" complains are really the last thing we need.
Like I said before: things are complicated enough already.

We can let things rest now, the Maya have promised to return the worker asap.
And apparantly the coreans are working on a deal.

I'm closing the thread to avoid other distracting fights.