Beyond the Pit - Argument Thread

[LzPrst]

for crying out loud. this was supposed to be resolved!

enough foolishness! this is FOOLISHNESS!

Maya. You should give that worker back. This was the general will of the community to be the best way to solve the issue you created by making a move considered an exploit, then capitalizing on that even further. A deal was apparently agreed upon. If you cannot be trusted to uphold deals, for whatever reason, that is going to be a serious hinder to you for the rest of the game. You've already created a huge mistrust towards yourself by your unsportmanslike abuse of a situation that was being discussed in plenum. The fact that you have now clearly and obviously reneged on the agreement made, based partly on OOC pressure coming from the established fact that you exploited an advantage gotten by a dubious act, you have shown yourself to utterly untrustworthy, IC and even to some extent OOC.

You have by greedily grasping and pigheadeadly held onto a small advantage by stealing a worker, begotten yourself an extreme uphill slope to surpass in any future diplomacy. If you lack the wisdom to see that, then you are likely to come to learn the hard way, as already you have built a towering reputation as untrustworthy, uncaring for the diplo genre, irrespondent to the suggestions of the general community, win-focused beyond sportsmanship, and being hostile towards the experienced players who know what pitfalls a diplogame can fall to and who have tried to solve this issue to avoid just that.

I have been a diploplayer for some time, and I have, despite moments of weakness, always tried to keep calm and look at the bigger picture. There have been many disagreements, fervously so, and I have always tried, whenever able, to take a mediator position. Despite this game being populated with adult mature individuals, one would be surprised to see how often petty disagreements blow up into furious attacks. It is a consequence of the time and effort we invest into the game.

The focus we have to keep is, this is a game. We play for fun. Not for keeps. Winning is more fun than not winning, but creating a negative environment and mood is not fun, regardless of winning. Your actions now are creating resentment that will ferment and enpest the community of players, and it will likely come back to you later expanded exponentially. And then you will complain that people conspired against you, or that it is unfair that other nations will not deal with you. Which are the natural fruit of the seeds you now so disregardantly sow.


The reason I wanted this resolved, which it seemed to be by the deal you made with Korea, is to avoid the kind of bad blood that is now bubbling forth. As I said, this will create a bad spirit in the attitude of players in the game resulting in vindictiveness, OOC accusations and plain old quitting. Which is not what any of us want. Or at least so I thought.

Let me stress this one more time. We are playing a game, for the purpose of entertainment and enjoyment. You, or anyone else for that matter, that does not keep this in mind, are bound to detract from the enjoyment of others. And likely your own. Sportsmanship is important here. Winning is as well, but it should not come at the expense of the enjoyment of the game, for the great odds is that if that occurs, the game will end. And then there is no more fun for anyone. Consider my words well, they are meant to warn and advise, and I am trying to explain, from many a negative personal experience the problems that an attitude such as yours creates and the dire consequences it results in.

[deity]

Originally posted by Pitboss Japan
well i already know who 7 of the 18 are already. so the hard part for me is not telling anyone else.

How is this possible?

I can hardly remember who is actually in the game! And you might be wrong. I like not knowing - let's NOT speculate here.

And you must not tell others what you think you know.

[Pitboss Vikings]

I think i know who the vikings are !

[Pitboss Japan]

i wrote down everyone who is playing and from the writings done in other games its not hard to tell who is who.

[Pitboss Japan]

don't get me wrong i might have one or two mixed up but for the most part im 80% sure of who is who but i wont tell anyone even if im torchered.

[The Capo]

Damn guys.

I know I'm not considered the most cool and collected person who has ever played in a diplogame. In fact, I have probably caused my fair share of arguments and animosity between our community, some would even say an unfair share of those disputes.

But from what I can gather here, this is just a horrible example of one player, in this case the Mayan player taking advantage of a systemic issue (I'd call it cheating) to further his/her own aims at the risk, and the player should have known this when they did what they did, of destroying the game itself.

The game, as Lz said is the entire purpose of playing.

Yeah some people are "noobs" and some are "vets," and I don't know where all of this business about pros comes from, but I disagree with pretty much everything that person who made that post said. The vets are good guys, and I've played in games with them, and yeah they are manipulative scoundrels who usually deserve to be destroyed from 4000 bc onward (cough deity cough), but that's what makes the diplogame a diplogame. If there isn't any scheming in the background, or underhanded duplicity, then all it is is a bunch of guys writing stories to feed their egos.

You don't have to write up stories all the time to explain why you do things in a game, if you want to be an unscrupulous rake that is your decision, and you will get what you deserve. That's how it should be.

But when you cheat, or when you take advantage of the game knowingly, and there is no way it wasn't knowingly from what I can gather, you are NOT what this community wants and you are NOT what this community should have to put up with.

So if this guy did cheat, if he did take advantage of someone unfairly you should be able to kick him out, and I suggest you do so.

And it wouldn't be a Capo post without me saying something that will probably piss you guys off; THIS IS WHY WE SHOULDN'T PLAY ANONYMOUSLY!

Peace.

[Pitboss Maya]

You know, I did some thinking about the actual move that is now being called cheating.

I never ended the turn. I played my turn with about half an hour left on the clock. Some players still had not played their turn. When the timer ran out, I played my second turn (think I was getting ready for work at the time).

Not that I am trying to justify my action, because in my mind it is already justified since it gave me no advantage gameplay wise.

But my understanding of a "double move" is that you end the turn by being the last player to move, then take your second turn right away.

So if we are still going to harp on how this was cheating, then we must ask ourselfs, how long from the pervious turn must you wait until you make your second move?

And Korea, your not getting the worker back unless you take it ingame. I was going to give it back, but now it is a moral issue. I can't very well spell out in a guide how the powers that be will bully players OOC through rule interpertation to acheive their ends, then turn around and give in to such bullying.

And regarding my guide which has caused such a stir, remember, if you are not guilty then no reason to be offended. If you are guilty, well then...

And if the propaganda against me as of late over one worker isn't a shining example of what I was talking about then I don't know what is.

[Pitboss Maya]

yeah they are manipulative scoundrels who usually deserve to be destroyed from 4000 bc onward (cough deity cough), but that's what makes the diplogame a diplogame.

I thought you disagreed with pretty much everything I wrote in the guide?

I am not disputing that they are good guys. I would actually agree. The purpose of the guide was to let new players know how things work. Your quoteable comment above seems to support that.

Actions and comments from others as of late support the rest of my orginal argument.

It is not ment to be insulting, it is just the facts. Sorry for letting the cat out the bag.

[Robert]

So if we are still going to harp on how this was cheating, then we must ask ourselfs, how long from the pervious turn must you wait until you make your second move?

This has been settled, it's 1/3rd of the turn-timer must have passed between two war-moves.

This concerns moves where a player takes advantage of a 'double move'.
As far as I know the Maya didn't take any advantage of their double move. Therefor it's not cheating. period.

The reason that we want the worker to be returned is not because of cheating or something, but because:

1. there was no story buildup reason for the war. No story, no explanation. It came afterwards, but that's against all diplogame rules.

2. There was a state of confusion regarding the war and the double move. Some thought the game would be restarted b/c you took his city. In this state of confusion you were able to take his worker.

3. It's way too hars to take a worker that early in the game. If a player has a city and a worker, nothing else, then taking his worker is like minimizing his changes for the rest of the game.

Having said that, I reject anybodies claim that you (maya) cheated.
That's simplistic using big words.
If there's no advantage, there's no cheating. It's as simple as that.

Therefor I have said several times that the Coreans should stop whining and start building their IC story, find allies (ie. the Greek, who are apparantly in their neighbourhood).

Anybody who takes 1 side in this conflict apparantly lost sight of any kind of nuance. Both sides have made mistakes.

There's only 1 way to give the worker back at this stage of the game: Maya: move the worker next to a Corean warrior. Then declare war and let the Coreans take it back.

The Mayans are free, imho, to invade the Coreans for their stubborness to negotiate a border deal. But first the worker-thing must be settled. I have given 3 reasons for that worker-returning.

If this will not happen within 3 turns from now I will pause the game.

@Maya: you may not like it that some of the vets are giving their opinions, but that's what happens when a problem can't be solved IC.

I urge all players to reconsider their hars words towards the Mayans. Don't let such a small thing influence the entire game. Not in the last place because you force him to take a solid position in this case by placing such hars words towards him.

Especially from 'veterans' I expect more OOC diplomacy.

[The Capo]

First of all, you've taken one thing I've said in my post completely out of context. When I said that I was speaking about actions within the game as part of the game. I never said any of the vets took advantage of a rule, I should have been more clear but what I meant was that some of them IN THE GAME are untrustworthy. I didn't mean outside of the game, and I take great offense to you implying that they would try and manipulate people in an OOC manner.

I was more or less offended by your "guide," because obviously I don't know the specific rules of your game, and I said in my post that I was speaking on the issue from the information I had in front of me. It still seems to me that you wittingly took advantage of a situation that you should not have.

But my main arguments are twofold, my first one is that your guide is completely wrong and harmful to us getting more diplogamers because (a) you seem to speak from experience on the matter and they may believe you for some reason, and (b) you attacked the diplogaming community anonymously, which I think is wrong. If you want to make a blanket statement like that about a whole group of people who have worked hard and put up with this crap far too many times you should have the stones to do it with your real log-in.

The second part of my argument is that we shouldn't ever use anonymous names again, and I know I am in a minority on the subject but I'll say it again anyway.

Now, here is why I think you are an idiot....

The noob belives that there are no winners in this format. They think actions and stories should take fun into consideration first, winning second. They belive that "fairness" should and will rule the day. They have faith in the community to bring about justice. They honestly think whining OOC is taboo. They are clueless to the behind the scenes politics and manipulations of the Veteran players.

The simple fact that you have adopted the term "noob" is laughable enough, but you go on to imply that only a "noob" thinks that there are no winners. This is something that I have said repeatedly, and this is something that plenty of your so-called vets have said repeatedly as well. Then you go on to say that they are clueless to what is going on behind the scenes. Now I don't know if you mean behind the scenes as far as diplomatic deals are made, such as "you trick him into sending an army against me, and then when his army is gone you attack him" which anyone who played in HOTW2 can tell you happened to me, and I didn't cry at all about it OOC (which is something a vet is supposed to do according to this moron as you will see later), or if you are talking about a more sinister plot that occurs OOC, or simply because someone doesn't like eachother, for example;

(I am just using these names, this never happened)

deity: Let's kill Prometheus, he is a noob and I can't be bested by a noob.

OzzyKP: Yeah you're right, let's maintain the status quo, screw him.

Now, if you meant the former then you are an idiot because that is part of a diplogame. Not all of the diplomacy has to or should occur in public. In fact in HOTW 2 we all typed up explanations of our secret, behind the scenes, diplomacy. And believe me, that game had plenty of it, Ozzy and deity can attest to that. And if you meant the latter scenario, then you are simply an ******* for making that accusation. I have been in plenty of diplogames, and never once, NOT ONCE have I ever seen anything like this occur between anyone, vets or noobs or even pros, which you apparently think you are.

The pro realizes that there is no fun in being a vassle (sic) or not having power in game. All actions have the sole purpose of furthering their civilization, and stories are a means of justifiying said actions. They realize that "fairness" is for the most part subjective, and should be tested often. They realize that the only way anyone is going to step in and help another civ is if it benifits their own civ. They realize that whineing OOC is essential. They are wise to the manipulations of the Veteran players.

For the most part, this statement is true, until you get to the end when you, for some reason, say that complaining about things OOC is essential and then go on to indicate that this is because of the manipulations of the veteran players. As I have said earlier, if you mean diplomatic manipulation you are just plain wrong; if you are being manipulated diplomatically you shouldn't complain about it Out of Character, you should do something about it in the game. If someone is making you their pawn, get them back, don't complain about it in the forums. If someone is making a fool of you in-game it is wrong and in poor form to create an OOC issue out of it simply because you can't stand the heat.

This exact thing has occurred on a few occasions and more often than not ruins the game. The fact that you are justifying a player complaining OOC about something that happens in game is ridiculous. Now, you may not be talking about that, you may be talking about my second example from earlier where there is a personal, OOC, reason for this manipulation in which case I am sorry. But I can assure you there is no conspiracy by the few vets left who still play to do anything like that. In fact I would say many of the vets want new players.

Now the part that pissed me off the most....

The Veteran enters a game expecting to come out on top (or close to it). Nothing infuriates a Vet more then the idea that they may wind up a mediocore civ or God forbid near the bottom. If a non-vet bests a vet, they must have somehow cheated. Vets like to keep the rules loose for this reason, realizing that rule interpertation is an invaluable tool that only they weild. They mention how whining OOC is looked down upon, but only to add emphisis to the ligitimacy of their argument when they do it (ie. what happened to ME is so unfair that I MUST say something OOC although it pains me to do so ). The balance between the Vets is delicate however, they both fear and back each other up at the same time. Above all, they promote the ideas that that are often held as truths by noobs. This maintains their advantage because the less people who play like they do, the less competition. Once your eyes are open to all of this, it is quite entertaining actually to observe opinions about the same situation change depending on who is involved.

Okay, the first point you make is that Vets must be the top dog in a diplogame otherwise they become infuriated and start accusing people of cheating. Then you go on to say that they hold a monopoly on the rules and use this in order to control the rest of the players (except of course for the perfectly enlightened pro who is wise to the ways o the vets, BTW when exactly does a pro become a vet? how does this process work? is it like puberty?). Then you say they trash OOC complaining because it bolsters their own use of OOC complaining. What the hell are you talking about?

You fail to use any examples of this, and since I don't know who you are, because you are hiding behind your anonymous log in, I can't even bring up a situation you may have been involved in. But if a situation in which a vet says "The fact that I am even talking to you OOC should prove the merit of my argument" has occured, ever, I would appreciate you showing me.

Then you say that a vet will back up what a "noob" thinks not because they agree with this person but because they want to keep the pool of players untalented so the vets can continue dominating the genre. Do you really think before you type this stuff up?

I mean you are basically saying that the people who created and nurtured the diplogaming style of play have also created a conspiracy to keep other players out of the genre. That makes no sense at all.

The reality is that you are angry that everyone considered your actions to be in poor taste and you are angry that I said you cheated. Now I probably shouldn't have used that word, but I was using the information I had before me and I may have been incorrect in that rush to judgment. But my main point was that you did something that everyone else realized was against the rules, and therefore you should have known too. the fact that you continue to fight against this, in my mind, is proof that you knew as well. If everyone said what you did was against the rules then it is against the rules and you should simply repair the damage. That is all.

If you simply didn't realize it, no harm done. But I think you did, and while your actions may not have guaranteed you victory, that is not to say that it wasn't bad.

And to go back to my second point, we shouldn't play anonymously because of things like this. And this next part is just for the rest of the vets; guys, if we don't know the identity of upstarts like this, how are we going to conspire in the shadows about how to keep him down?



Peace

[OzzyKP]

While I very much disagree with the Mayan's cynical opinion of diplogamers (of course I'm a vet, so he predicted I'd disagree) I think I am much more disappointed in Korea.

Assuming Korea is Deity then I think the bigger cheater, the bigger liar, and the bigger violator of our trust is Deity. Before this game started we agreed that three vets: Deity, Toni and I would refrain from picking Fin & Ind civs because they give an uneven benefit in diplogames that is taken advantage of by highly skilled players. Through the use of these traits Toni, Deity and I have been on top in pretty much every single diplogame.

I think it is entirely desirable for the best players to handicap themselves to create a more even playing field and thus ensure a more competitive (and fun) game. These games get incredibly dull and predictable with the same people coming out on top every single game. So I thought it was entirely reasonable that we take this small step to try and handicap Toni, Deity and I.

Toni, Deity and I all agreed to it.

Then Toni & Deity picked a Fin or an Ind civ.

I made a fuss and we gave them time to repick. If the accusations are true that Korea is Deity that means that he either didn't repick (and lied) or repicked a Fin civ on purpose (also lied).

That I think is far more deceitful and damaging to the game than the inconsequential 'double-move' that the Mayans did. I am quite upset over it actually. It really seems to be a low, petty move if this is the case. And an example of what the Mayans are talking about of players who will win at any cost no matter how many corners have to be cut and how many game rules need to be manipulated to do so.

Frankly I wouldn't lose any sleep if Greece & the Mayans eliminated Korea right now. I don't really want to play with someone who would so blatantly lie to us and disrupt the balance of the game for personal gain.

I think Cyber's definition of a vet is far more apt. Though I don't know who I'd put into that category. I think a good diplogamer puts the game above himself and his own victory. This seems to be a very rare trait however. Much rarer than I'd like to see.

Not that I want to turn this thread into trying to defend myself, I have done many things consciously over the years to handicap myself unilaterally. For one, I consider Fin to be an overpowered trait and never picked it (except once when I was one of the last people to pick a civ and there weren't any other good options left). Also, I'll take more risks in the game than players like Toni or Deity do. As the Arabs in HOTW7 I went to war with many players because it fit my storyline to do so. And because it made the game more enjoyable for everyone having some bad guy to hate and fear. Plus, wars are just damn interesting in general. I think Mongolia has done a great job of this in HOTW12 and I respect them highly for it.

Because the surest way to win these games is to never make waves, never cross other big powers. Just quietly build and expand. Deity & Toni are expert builders. They are also very generous too. They help out everyone. This isn't done just for charity, this is done so no one has any motive to attack them. Look at HOTW9 where Toni built up like an 8 civ alliance. And Deity's OOC whining in HOTW12 that he was always being good, how dare anyone attack him.

I try to make waves. I roll the dice and get into wars. Wars are not only costly if you lose, but can be costly if you win too. The amount of effort you put into making troops and taking considerable losses is rarely compensated by whatever loot you get for winning. Wars also make bad blood and future enemies. But again, this is part of the fun of diplogames. Part of the fun I think some of the "vets" miss out on.

I also roll the dice in other ways. In HOTW5 (even though everyone thinks it is stupid) I held an IC contest to see who would win the hand of my princess and thus which civ would be my ally in the game. I really did open it up to everyone and I would have faithfully allied with anyone who won the contest. Sadly most people blew it off and whined later that I allied with the civ who won it. But I also will hold elections at critical moments in the game and allow my fate to be decided by people in a poll. In fact in HOTW7 (the game everyone somewhat rightfully complained about my staying allied with Toni all game) one of the poll options would have resulted in me allying with Deity and starting a full scale assault against Toni. Heck, I even voted for that option, but few others did. I abided by the result of the poll, but my game could have gone radically different.

Also in HOTW7 I picked the Arabs, who I think are a pretty lame civ for diplogames. The protective trait is pretty lame imho and while I love spiritual to death, the UB and UU for the Arabs is also pretty weak. But I picked them because of roleplaying potential and the fun of it, I didn't just pick the civ I thought I'd be most likely to win with. Or I would have gone with someone like the Inca (who get picked in every single game.. usually by the same people).

Also, CS mentions how Deity was a small civ in HOTW5 and he stuck with it anyway. Yes, he did. But he didn't stay a small civ. He ended up being one of the best civs in the game and nearly won. Why? Well I think a big part of it was because I again handicapped myself. I was the top civ, India, in that game and if I wanted to could have gone and gobbled up a lot of land in the New World and stopped smaller civs from getting a piece. Same with HOTW7. But in both games I decided that the New World was a great opportunity for smaller civs to catch up in a big way with lots of new land. So I, as a more established civ, wouldn't try to grab much New World land. Sadly not all civs work this way.

I'm not just saying all this stuff to say "oh I'm so great, Deity & Toni suck" but to say that these are the types of things us vets need to do to try and create a fair game where we don't have all sorts of OOC *****fests. It isn't good for the game at all to have the same people on top every single game. I stressed this emphatically before this game started and that is why I pushed strongly to stop the vets from picking Fin & Ind traits. I handicap myself usually and knew that the others would *never* handicap themselves. They'd do whatever it takes to win. So I figured it was time to create a rule to try and ensure balance.

We agreed on the rule after much discussion and I am very upset to see that it may have been dishonestly ignored after all.

I'm not perfect though. I admit that I probably shouldn't have stayed allied with Toni all game in HOTW7. I was seriously looking into attacking him though towards the end, but that's still no excuse.

If Vet civs don't handicap themselves intentionally then there is only one way to take them down. Attack them early. When I played England (HOTW9?) the Zulu rushed me very early. It crippled me all game. Maya is right, I did whine OOC about that. But it was because, I felt, they took it too far and were seeking to permanently cripple me. Permanently crippling a civ isn't allowed from any civ at any stage in the game. But attacking me early and setting me back, that I think was a brilliant idea, and what the Maya are trying to do here. I don't think it will cripple Korea, but set them back? Sure. And good.

Maybe I'm just guilty of seeing it as a violation of the rules when it is done to me and ok when it is done to someone else. Maybe I'm a hypocrite as Maya would suggest. But I think I have a pretty fair perspective on this game and have always, as much as possible, tried to increase the balance of the game instead of unbalance it. If more people tried this then perhaps we wouldn't have these OOC issues all the time.

And again, for those of you fixated on the double move issue, it didn't give the Mayans any strategic advantage in this case. If it had I would feel much differently. It is a red herring. The Mayans could have done the exact same thing without violating the double-move rule (and yes it was agreed upon) and people would still be whining about what they did.

I think the far bigger cheat though was Deity (assuming again he is Korea) flat-out lying to all of us by saying he picked a non-Fin civ and picking one anyway. I think there should be strict consequences for that.

[The Capo]

Ozzy, as usual you have outdone yourself. (can you usually out-do oneself?)

Ozzy for president.

This makes me want to play a diplogame with you.

EDIT: And for those of you who don't know, I am one of those vets who is NEVER one of the top civs.

[OzzyKP]

I love playing with you too, Capo. Even though you can be a royal pain in the ass sometimes (usually?). You are a hell of a diplogamer.

[The Capo]

Usually, but I don't cheat and I don't complain about in game stuff OOC.

[Robert]

@Ozzy: you'd better stop assuming things and post conclusions based on guesses. There's no reason at all to believe that deity is Corea, so it's a 1 out of 15 change you're right. Those odds are way too small to accuse deity from the things you accuse him from. Not to mention that you apparantly don't trust him.

The Corea/Maya thing is already big enough, no need to introduce a deity/ozzy conflict as well.