Analysis of Popular Diplogame Civs/Leaders

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by LzPrst
let's play it out. who knows, maybe it was Raz, that chose Inca. but it is a very interesting analysis. I'm not 100% sure though if Inca are so great. consider this.

No never played as inca , dont know why. I guess shows my lack of understanding.

[Rasputin]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
The slackers. But that is a lot harder to change than by making rules about what traits certain people can have. It is an ingrained strategic mindset that is tough to change in these games. Players look poorly on aggressors. It gives you a bad rep and makes finding future alliances and friends more difficult. Plus everyone wants someone else to topple the leader, no one wants to do it themselves because there is too much risk. So no one does it.

Quite obviously the benefits of building a library greatly outweigh that of building a swordsman or two. So if you can play nice diplomatically with your neighbors and deemphasize the military you will be more successful. An early war against an opponent may cripple them long term, but it'll cripple you long term as well. So those who can avoid wars are the ones who excel in the game.

There are lots and lots of reasons why people don't attack. Generally attacking is not in their best interest.

That would be the best thing to address. But it isn't as easy as stopping certain players from using certain overpowered traits.

Wars are not done a lot in diplo for a few reasons . the biggest of these is the traditional Vicotry Conditions. With space race still left in as a Victory, it means avoiding wars is a smart way to ensure you can tech your way to apollo and then utilize your econmy to produce the space ship parts without fear of having to a protracted war to support.

Other victoy conditions also support a non aggresive stance.

I have never palyed a MP Civ4 game so this will be interesting to see the differences, but in SP i have found i have won some games without ever having a single war. Just building away and launching a space ship or a Diplomatic UN victory.

[LzPrst]

I suspect very much that this game will have plenty of war. I believe it should. There are of course risks, but the rewards are of course great. An important detail is of course that no war should leave a player wiped out, or unplayable. However, smashing an opponent and then turning him into a key ally, supporting him to make him a valuable partner is actually quite good business.

[The Capo]

BUMP

I just wanted to bump this thread because I think it was a good discussion for Diplogames. I wanted to say whenever I pick a leader it isn't so much the leader but the civilization. In the game where I was Spain I didn't really pick them to have Isabella, I did it because I wanted to play as Spain.

So I think there are different reasons for picking certain countries, and that probably goes for certain traits too.

I will say though that a case can certainly be made for Financial, Industrious especially in a diplogame sense. Where warfare is kept to a minimum (at least traditionally) and where building and going to space has usually been the object. That said, I think the new victory conditions (with the voting and all) have done a lot ot curb this as a winning strategy, but like Ozzy said old habits do die hard. So you're still going to get people who stick to their old guns.

Personally though, I usually pick the civ and then decide the leader, unless of course there is only one leader.

[MMC]

Considering it looks like England has been in more Civ4 Diplogames than any other civ, I'm surprised that I'm the only player to ever pick Victoria. Although in retrospect, I think Churchill might have supported my playstyle a little better.

[OzzyKP]

Ok, I did a tally of the traits in Beyond the Pit and added all the info to the first post. Traits in this game are:

Financial---------5
Expansive--------5
Imperialistic-------5
Protective----------4
Philosophical-----3
Organized---------3
Spiritual----------3
Industrial--------2
Charismatic------2
Aggressive--------2
Creative-----------2

Also an examination of how adventurous everyone is with picking new leaders or leaders that get picked in every single game.
Inca (Huayna Capac) (Industrial, Financial) - Anonymous - 7 Times
Vikings (Ragnar Lodbrok) (Aggressive, Financial) - Anonymous - 3 Times
Korea (Wang Kong) (Protective, Financial) - Anonymous - 3 Times
Spain (Isabella) (Spiritual, Expansive) - Anonymous - 3 Times
Celts (Brennus) (Spiritual, Charismatic) - Anonymous - 2 Times
Persia (Cyrus I) (Charismatic, Imperialist) - Anonymous - 2 Times
England (Victoria) (Financial, Imperialistic) - MMC - 2 times
Portugal (Joao II) (Expansive, Imperialist) - Anonymous - 2 Times
Native America (Sitting Bull) (Philosophical, Protective) - Anonymous - 2 Times
Holy Roman Empire (Charlemagne) (Protective, Imperialist) - Anonymous - 2 Times
America (Roosevelt) (Industrious, Organized) - Anonymous - 2 Times
Rome (Julius Caesar) (Imperialist, Organized) - Anonymous - 2 Times
Russia (Peter) (Expansive, Philosophical) - Anonymous - 1 Time
India (Asoka) (Organized, Spiritual) - OzzyKP - 1 Time
Greece (Pericles) (Creative, Philosophical) - Anonymous - 1 Time
Japan (Tokugawa) (Aggressive, Protective) - Anonymous - 1 Time
Khmer (Suryavarman) (Creative, Expansive) - Anonymous - 1 Time
Maya (Pacal II) (Expansive, Financial) - Anonymous - 1 Time

While it is too late for this game, I think it would be a good idea to reward through the point system people who take a chance by taking new civs and those who pick the same civs over and over and over again.... like Inca...

But with the exception of the one guy who picked Inca...again... I am quite pleased to see the spread of leaders in this game. Six people tried a leader who has never been used before in a game, and another 8 people picked leaders who were only chosen once before.

Some ideas for giving points based on civ originality:

Trait points:
Financial---------1
Industrial--------2
Spiritual----------3
Expansive--------4
Philosophical-----5
Imperialistic-------6
Charismatic-------7
Aggressive--------10
Organized---------10
Protective----------10
Creative-----------11

Leader Originality:
Never chosen before: 5
Chosen once before: 4
Chosen twice before: 3
Chosen three times before: 2
Chosen four times before: 1
Chosen five or more times before: 0

Never chosen by you before: 5
Chosen by you once before: 2
Chosen by you more than once before: 0

Civ Originality:
Never chosen before: 5
Chosen once before: 4
Chosen twice before: 3
Chosen three times before: 2
Chosen four times before: 1
Chosen five or more times before: 0

Never chosen by you before: 5
Chosen by you once before: 2
Chosen by you more than once before: 0

Some of this may get tricky with anonymous, but it assumes we all reveal ourselves at the end of the game. So some examples, lets say in a future game I pick to be Gandhi. My points would be:

Trait points:
Industrious - 2
Spiritual - 3

Leader Originality:
Chosen three times before: 2
Chosen by you once before: 2

Civ Originality:
Chosen four times before: 1
Chosen by you more than once before: 0

So I'd have a total score of 10 points.

Now, lets look at if I were to choose Sumeria as my civ.

Trait points:
Protective----------10
Creative-----------11

Leader Originality:
Never chosen before: 5
Never chosen by you before: 5

Civ Originality:
Never chosen before: 5
Never chosen by you before: 5

I'd have 41 points. That is a sizeable difference, but not insurmountable. I think that'd give just enough incentive for people to pick creatively. I recommend we try it.

[The Capo]

I don't know that its very fair to give points based on the leader. I personally wouldn't care myself, but I think people might have a problem with that aspect. Especially people who aren't that good, like Raz. Who apparently plays SP games on Chieftan or Settler... when I said that I almost started laughing. I mean I suck, horribly, and I play on Noble. I consider Noble to be the standard for people who suck balls at this game.

[OzzyKP]

Well I think a system like this would benefit players like Raz who don't seem to know or care what traits leaders have. They could pick for something original to give them maximum points and thus tell a story that with a civ that has never been covered before. Then they get a point boost over the vets who are likely to pick the same civs regardless.

[classical_hero]

So if that is implemented then Gilgamesh is going to be very popular next game.

[OzzyKP]

Good.

Variety.

[The Capo]

This is partially why I am working on this diplogame mod, there are three new traits and a bunch of new civs (although a lot of them will be getting the axe; I am probably going to get rid of the Hittites, Hurrians, Aborigines, and Papal States). I am also trying to add new leaders, and already have added Henry the Navigator to Portugal.

I think with more combinations spread out among more civilizations we will get more diverse games. I know Ozzy is worried that the SIZE of the Mod may prove problematic, but that will really only be a problem with Memory Allocation Failures, and if we're playing pitboss games (which appears to be the new format of diplogames since nobody wants to play a regular one) that shouldn't/won't be a problem.

Now what I am working on is pretty messy, but I am learning how to do it, so I don't have a date for the release. But I hope some of these new civics/leaders will be used by some players (if we go ahead with it) so we can get even more diversity in future games. BTW, sorry for hijacking this thread.

[OzzyKP]

It isn't just the size of the mod that I'm worried about it is the fact that it isn't remotely balanced. Before you sink too much time into it, I'd advise you find people who are actually interested in using this mod. I agree strongly that some general diplogame mod is needed, but this isn't it, and I probably wouldn't playin a game that uses the Thomas' War mod.

A general use diplogame mod should be far more limited in scope. Adding lots of new wonders, buildings, game concepts, civs, traits, units, technologies and all the rest should be beyond our scope.

[The Capo]

Well, while that may be true I think you are giving the mod too much credence.

The only technology added is Mystery Cult which starts the Hellenic religion. The rest are from the NextWar mod, and only really extend the game into a futuristic environment. So I don't think it really throws the balance too much, especially with all human players.

As far as the wonders go; almost all of them are national wonders so everyone has an opportunity to build them. The ones that aren't don't really do too much. Since there is a trait issue (ie "Vets" picking financial) I figured adding new traits might spice it up and change this.

The world wonders I can think off the top of my head are the Via Appia (which gives you "roman roads" that have one extra movement) and Macchu Pichu (which gives resource bonuses to mountain terrain), and I don't think those effect the game too much.

I will also say that I am working on this mod for my own enjoyment really, and offering it as a POSSIBLE diplogame mod. I thought the inquisitor unit would make religion a bigger tool for diplomacy (remember the religious wars between the southern states and Russia/India in HOTW5 I think it was).

So that said, I am working on it for my own entertainment and just asking if people would like to try it out for a diplogame. I am not putting too much stock into it as a permenant mod for all games. As far as the balance goes; I have played a lot of games with it and it doesn't seem much different than a normal BtS game to me soo far.

[OzzyKP]

Ok, cool.

[Pitboss Vikings]

i palyed a couple of starts of the mod capo and it feels so different. for someone like myself that doesnt know everything there is to know about civ to start with, this came as just such a lot more to learn.

the different civs with diferent buildigns.

not saying it bad. plase dont get me wrong. and i think once finished for vet players this will be good.

but i am for once agreeing with ozzy, if we going to mod a game for diplo i think we should minimise tha changes.

i know i saw earliers some discusion on what was needed to make a DIPLO mod, that is what was needed to add to the basic game to ensure it was more DIPLO style and less lets rush to Space to win.