Diplogames Rule Discussion Thread

[Robert]

TORTO comes with more administration then TORT.
Besides that doesnt it add something valuable imho.

what are the options:
OTT (open tech trading)
advantage: easy and simple
disadvantage: inventing techs doesnt give much profit, all civs are more or less equally advanced

NTT (no tech trading):
advantage: easy and simple; research pays off
disadvantage: limits alliance and trade options, bing a small civ even puts you behind even more

OTTAOT (open tech trading after one turn):
(you can only trade techs you gained through tech trading one turn after you gained it, techs you gained through research can be traded right away)
advantage: quite easy, it gives profit to research a tech first because you get one turn to trade a new tech to trade it to everyone without all other civs trading it among each other
disadvantage: all civs are technically more or less equal, requires some small administration

TORT: (trade only researched techs)
advantage: researching techs pays off, being behind in tech research doesnt eliminate you if you have a advanced allie who wants to share his techs. Researchers can control who owns their techs.
disadvantage: it requires administration

TORTO (trade only researched techs once):
advantage: researching techs pays off a bit, small nations with advanced allies can keep up, researchers can control who own their techs
disadvantage: requires quite some administration, bigger allies (3 or 4 civs) cant share techs. quite comlex

TORaCT (trade only researched and conquered techs)
(If you press a civ to sign a peacedeal in exchange for one or more techs you can trade these techs as if you researched them yourself. KEEP IN MIND THAT A CIV CAN ONLY GIVE TECHS THEY RESEARCHED THEMSELVES IN EXCHANGE FOR PEACE)

advantage: all advantages of TORT plus being a strong civ who can intimidate other civs pays off as well.
disadvantage: requires administration


I prefer TORaCT, it comes close to OTT (close to the intention of the game), it gives advantages to civs that accomplish something (research or military), it gives possibilities to alliances who can assign different roles to different members (ie India focusses on research, America focusses on money, Russia focusses on militairy). It creates power blocks without an equally advanced world.

HOTW5 proved imho that it works great.
If people dont like the conquer aspect of TORqCT (remember you can only give techs you researched (or conquered) for peace!!!) then I prefer TORT (for obvious reasons), I think TORTO ruins the alliance part of the game. (or it should be TORTT (TORTtwice))

If that wont work for the majority (I think it will work for most though) then I prefer OTTAOT at least above OTT because it at least gives a one turn advantage for researching yourself at least.

I suggest that we first agree to use one of the TORT variants (TORT, TORTO, TORTT or TORaCT) and if we agree to use a TORT variant we decide which variant it will be, if it wont be a TORT variant we decide if it ll be OTT, NTT or OTTAOT

Thus: either a TORT variant or another variant is the first question we need to answer

I say: any TORT variant

[deity]

Interesting post Cyber

Do you think you could expand on that...

I vote NTT or TORTO.

I think TORTO is simple to administer and protects against big advanced alliances. In fact it forces alliances of more than 2 civs to focus on certain directions; further increasing the number tech blocs and causing a disparity in an alliance. A good thing if 5 civs ally.

[Rasputin]

I hate acronyms ......

[Toni]

I vote NTT

[MMC]

Everyone appears to be going OTT here. My favourite pasta is TORTOlini. I think everyone is just a big PRETT for letting themselves get dragged into this.

But seriously, I believe that the only way people are going to agree (I don't think there's any point in making people happy... getting them to agree is hard enough) is if we settle for realism.

Whilst in Civ4, the game is geared towards the 'OTT' method, it is too unrealistic, in the sense that instant trading of techs simply does not happen in the real world. On the other hand, tech trading does happen, and even alliances specifically for the purpose of trading techs do happen, which throws the 'NTT' method out of the window (*). Most of the restrictions that have been proposed can, in fact, be seen as stupid, unenforcable, and/or unrealistic.

However, one idea has stood out in my opinon. The 'PRETT' method appears to be the most realistic, and with a few tweaks should present at least a playable model that can deflect arguements to other areas that need clearing up.
By restricting trades to only those whom you share a border with, this allows for a realistic transfer of techs. However this offeres only a limited grasp of reality, so we could drop the restriction if both parties have Radio (or an equivalent such as Satellites). Then, to allow an appropriate trade between allies on either side of the globe, we should allow trades with civs that have allowed one of your units into their territory (possibly locking tradable techs to not include those aquired since the units were last in your territory - thus requiring units to be moved around to facilitate tech trading [most realistic]).

To summarise: By using a unit-based variant of the 'PRETT' system, until the advent of Radio (or to be liberal, Railroad - to account for mail trains), we can form a method that closely follows the most workable form of reality. I believe that this should be a method everyone can agree on, even if they don't actively like it.

[Rasputin]

wow getting way too complicated and requires a trust level that is fine for old palyers but newbies not so much.

Easier if yiu stick to things that are in the game. its like Chopping t obuild settlers , was it intended to be done, no , was it allowed , yes. Did i ever do it , no.

SO basically if sometihng is in the game mechanics lets leave it and play like the AI. Fiull on tech swapping, means no need for referees or game save checking or questions at game end as to how techs arrived.

[LzPrst]

My vote goes to TORTO. It is the easiest to administrate actually.

you invent a new tech you just have to keep in mind if you've traded it away or not. I think everyone should be able to keep organized a yes\no toggle for the techs they discover. if you're fearful that your memory wont suffice keep a piece of paper nearby and write down the techs you discover (wont be that many per turn) then make an X next to them if you have traded it. simple and easy.

as for the trust issue, I will assume that anyone who signs up for something of this magnitude will not dishonor the game and their fellow players by cheating.

also, I would really like to test out PRETT as I feel it would add a certain chunk of realism and create stronger diploneeds and dynamics among neighbours.

also here the level of administration is minor. do you share a border with the civ you want to trade with? yes/no
we can keep PRETT active until we reach a certain point, printing press is one option, astronomy, radio or railroad are other possibilities.

[LzPrst]

Will the participants please state clearly what they would prefer so we can sum it up and make for a decision? I assume a vote is the best way of deciding. Remember, this is not to be chiseled in marble for all eternity, it is just for this one particular diplogame, HOTW7. Taking our experiences from this game will give us insights into how to make this go smoothly for future games.
and there is nothing to say that we cant change a rule during the game if there is a consensus.

So far the vote is:

Ozzy -
LzPrst - TORTO, PRETT
Nolan -
Kuno -
CyberShy - TORACT
Prussia -
MMC - PRETT
deity - TORTO (or NTT)
Frank (Dangime) -
civil_obedience -
Capo -
Toni - NTT
Schtix - Undecided -
Rasputin - OTT

OTT - 1 vote
TORACT - 1 vote
TORT - 0 votes
TORTO - 2 votes
NTT - 1 vote

[MMC]

Originally posted by LzPrst
OTT - 1 vote
TORACT - 1 vote
TORT - 0 votes
TORTO - 2 votes
NTT - 1 vote

You missed out the 2 votes for PRETT - Yours and mine.

[Rasputin]

well till i get warlords upgrade my vote reall shouldnt coiunt for this game.

Hoping to find a copy next week

[MMC]

There virtually no difference, that I know, of between Vanilla and Warlords in this particular matter

[Rasputin]

no my reason for not wanting my vote t ocount potentially is if i dont get warlords i wont be playing

[MMC]

Oh, ok. But I'm sure the others would be willing to wait for you, if necessary.

[Rasputin]

yep jsut depends on whether stores have one in stock or not.

[OzzyKP]

Time for a new acronym!!!

Only First to Invent Tech can Trade OFICTT

So the first person to invent democracy can trade it to anyone, but no one else can trade that tech. Etc.

So my vote goes to TORT, TORTO and OFICTT