HOTW V - Set Up Thread II, or The Return of the Mods

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by CyberShy


That's the real question: is a diplo game a true diplo game, if diplomacy doesn't matter at all, and hours wort of talking are just a waste of time by default.

Anyway, that's a lesson for the next game.
Are we all in?

So a waste of time is defined as America not getting exactly what you wanted?

Do you understand compromise? You wouldn't even discuss the return of Boston.

And the summit was far more effective than you think. But you don't give it a chance to work itself out. Bah, your timing is so horribly wrong.... Again. *sigh*

[condor223]

China's vote is to go with the majority. I won't force anyone to keep going who is not wanting to play.

Ten civs.
bleh.. toooo tight a map for long game!

[KunojiLym]

Right, it's past time for me to post here, before I make any sort of story post.

I have to feel that this flare-up is at least partly my fault. Before the summit, the plan was to openly support India with massive arms; Peter's intention for the summit was to (hopefully) put him in good enough light so that there would be no quarrel should Russia join on the side of India. After the summit, it was clear that something so overt could no longer be done. Peter's (and my) intention, then, was to secretly supply India with arms (and not coincidentally turn his cities Christian; as Ozzy will verify, this is *not* something that I've ever cleared with him. ) However, that intention did not, at least in the beginning, include supplying cossacks, or upgrading Indian units to cossacks. I felt, and I still feel, that cavarly may well have been enough for the war anyway; also, to be so blatent didn't strike me as being very good. Just before the session started, though, I finally managed to get in touch with Ozzy (which I hadn't been able to do since the summit). Maybe I'm just easily swayed, but I eventually agreed to upgrade his knights to cossasks, with the IC reasoning being that these were Indian units seeking training in Russian barracks, as per the long-standing agreement. Note that my research rate (and Ozzy's as well I imagine) were both at 0%; money doesn't fall from the sky without sacrifice. In retrospect, I'm not sure if the reasoning was a good one, but regardless, it has happened, and unless we want to restart the session (note: the session, not the game), that is not going to change.

Peter, realize, isn't swayed by matters of religion, even though he was the one who turned Russia towards Christianity. He is first and foremost a realist, and even though as a monarch he feels uncomfortable about the new regime in India, as long as they continue to honor the previous agreements, he sees no reason why he shouldn't do the same. His personal faith can best be described as atheist; he sees religion as a tool, more than anything else. Incidentally, he and the Pope are at loggerheads with each other (I told The Capo as much); so you can expect some fireworks between the two figures in the story thread shortly. Whether this creates a fundamentalist Christian state hostile to India, or something else... well, you'll have to see.

If I have made anyone upset (in particular lzprst), then I'll apologize here. But as Ozzy said, the summit has had a real impact on the alliance, the result of which have yet to be fully played out.

[Robert]

So a waste of time is defined as America not getting exactly what you wanted?

No, I was prepared to give in. To pay for Boston, to give you the sugar, to give you soldiers, etc.
You just said: 1. give me Boston, 2. let me go through your lands

A compromis approach from your side would be: "I get Boston, but I'll pay you this and this"
And in the end, I expect any normal leader to understand that an american city has more change to be american then to be indian, unless you defend it good enough, which was something you didn't so quite well 8)

I am a very very small nation, so even OOC you could have been thinking: he can have Boston. I made a pretty good move getting it. I awared you Boston at the end of the World War as well, remember. I thought your tactic to get Boston was awesome.

Do you understand compromise? You wouldn't even discuss the return of Boston.

hehehe, I start to wonder if in fact you do know what a compromis is 8)
All you said so far is: "Return Boston" and you offer nothing in return, I have at least offered payback.

So a waste of time is defined as America not getting exactly what you wanted?

To get back on this once again, NO.
It's a waste of time because the involved nations are *never* going to change plans. No matter what no matter how. And perhaps Russia changed plans slightly, but it would REALLY have been overpowered if Russia and India would both have invaded America with full arms. Talking about 'out of ballance'.

You mentioned that we never tried to split Russia from India. I start to wonder if you received any of my e-mails. That's what I've been trying to do all the time. I tried to get you on my side, and support me in demanding Russia to end the persecution on the jews. I've offered you peace so I could invade Russia and leave Madras alone (during the World War) Those are REALLY attempts to split you and Russia.

But I'm afraid that you hardly notice this.
I don't want to insult you, but you're mostly busy writing your story. You're good at that. you're the author of your story, but your story is not influenced by anything that happens in the world. It's multiplayer. In your story you have Sita, you have the brilliant plan to find a partner for Sita and have an alliance. But you don't notice that there's someone at your door already, asking for an alliance. You have a plan with hinduism, and to spread it to Russia. But you miss the storyline with the jews. You never picked up all the things that happend with the jews in Russia. Kuno and me both worked on it, you ignored it, because you didn't notice it, it wasn't written by you. You got Boston, and in your story, Boston immediately was an Indian city. You dreamed about how all americans had left, or became Indian. But the facts are that they were still American, and America had not forgotten it. In your story though, it was all Indian, and you get outraged that someone dares to take it. In your opinion he doens't take it BACK, he just takes it. And if the facts are shown that the city contains of american citizen, it doesn't fit in your story. You just don't accept it. You come with all kind of stories, as if it grew from 1 to 8 under your reign. While it was only from 5 to 7. And you keep on coming with excuses why it is as it is in your story. Once again, you're good at writing your story, but this is a diplo game. We should be allowed to have influence on your story Ozzy. Now it's Ozzy's diplo game, and we are all playing a part in it, but it's the part you want us to play. you decide in your head that India is generous and will not sail to the new world, and you give the new world to the small nations. You don't understand that we don't follow the plans in your head. That we are perhaps too backwards to do that, or lack the money to found distant cities. Ozzy, please understand what WE say. You talk all the time about how we don't understand you, but that's because we don't want to be a player in your book. We want to be an equal player in a diplomacy game. Why did you not pick up LzPrst plan to kill or kidnap the indian King. That would have been an awesome story thread. But it was not yours, you couldn't use it, thus you quicly ended the line. I came with accusions that Sita might have been killed by the Russian 'murdere Tsar' but you didn't react on it, you just ignored it. You didn't even counter it, or asked for evidence. It was just not a story part from you, so you ignored it.

Ozzy, I don't want to insult you, but you really need to understand that this game is NOT ENTERTAINING to us. Not because we're losing, I don't care about that. Small civs do matter in civ4. We are not ENTERTAINED because it doesn't matter what we say or do or think or make up, you just don't pick it up.


Perhaps Dragon understood that more then we did, and he just decided to not contribute, since it would all be a waste of time anyway.

I'm not a self centered person, so if you guys really desire to play along, then I will play along. But you should know that I am playing 3 hour games in the middle of the night while I HATE it to play it.

And I still wonder why you think this is fun for you.
It's like if I would play soccer with Dragon 15 years ago (I was 13, he was 6) and I would have fun playing on my very best and win. Does it really satisfy you to invade me with the help of Russia and China?

Your outrage because I took Boston back is because it didn't fit within your own Ozzy story. And you didn't care about diplomacy, you just wanted the city. And you played it single-player style, getting all the help you could.

That's a ruined game dude.
Please open your eyes, try it at least.
Try to think on how it would be to be me. (aside from the game, that's pretty cool 8) )

This is like one of the best diplogames ever. All games have rough patches, just need to get past this, and we would if we'd keep playing and not throw fits.

We can't get past this Ozzy. You have like 10 wonders, 3 religions, 8 huge cities, huge armies, huge resources. I have nothing. I had 3 good cities, you're about to take the 2nd best. Not to mention that this game has been ruined by all this *****ing to each other. It's amazing how the great nations not even offered anything yet to make it fun for us again. That would be a pitty offering, and I wouldn't take it, but it's amazing that you didn't do that yet. You do not even understand that we don't have fun playing 3 hours in the night in a diplo game that's not a diplo game. You don't try anything to keep us in, all you just say is: "Keep on playing dudes, keep on playing".

We have no fun playing this game. It's as if we are 5 year old basketball players playing against huge 20 year old guys. We never get the ball. We never have a change. And the big boys just ignore us, and if we take the ball once (the ball is named Boston) then all the big guys jump on us and get 'outraged' and then later tell us that they didn't do with us what they planned to do with us at first, and how happy we should be with that.
I don't blame you for being a big boy in game. I do blame you guys for playing together for that long though.

[Robert]

Oh, and before you explode because of my 'ozzys world' comments, please clarify what you think what your compromis was, and why you think it's more of a compromis then mine.

[LzPrst]

2. All the cossacks I had, were knights that I upgraded. I had my science down to zero and I kept giving money to Russia.

In other words, russia let you upgrade your knights to cossacks. giving you a huge edge over us. cavalry we could defend against, cossacks, no way. didnt seem as the neutrality like they promised at the summit, indicating to me that russia was in fact supporting you all the time and just lulling us into a false sense of security with their summit. maybe not the case, but thats what it seemed to me. nothing indicated anything else.

3. Why on earth do you assume we were out to "destroy" the southern powers? No where did I say I was going to wipe you guys off the map. More than anything I wanted to be secure behind my borders. I thought I was after the Great War, but your surprize attack ruined it all, so I wanted to make sure you guys wouldn't do that again. Of course if you didn't surprize attack me, then we would have all been nice and peaceful. I don't understand why you guys are all mad about a war that YOU started.

First of all, purely factually, you started this war. In order to retake boston you declared war on america. by accepting peace and handing over boston earlier you made a deal, a peace. unfair or not, you made a peace, just as the first war resulted in a peace. you declared war on america in order to retake boston. as it turns out your peace was just a ploy for you to build your military.

and furthermore, if I may quote you from previously,

There can be no peace in this world as long as Germany remains a militarized, dominant nation.

what am I to make of that? your demands of america that they give you open borders for you to wage war on me and talk of this flavor can only lead to one conclusion, that you intended on conquering german lands, and making sure I could no way be a dominating nation. am I wrong? and if you managed to either conquer or subject germany to yourself, what would I do for the rest of the game? the one thing that germany has is a good production base. since I cant build any wonders because of my technological backwardness (and I am working to get an economy, I'm not an idiot) and I cant build any military due to your demands, what would I do? any attempt to rebuild my military would result in india shouting that I was breaking the terms of my servitude and as I've come to see it an army of the great nations would then walz in and reduce us again. thats what I deduced from indias announcements and the large power's unwavering support.

4. I've been loathe to divulge this, but since you guys are talking like this is the end of the game (which I think would be a terrible idea to end this now), let me say that your summit DID affect our alliance. Capo and I were freaking out before the session started. Maybe if you rode it out a little longer before quitting and throwing a fit, you would have seen exactly what you were looking for. But honestly the last like 2-3 days was the first time all game that I'm aware of that you guys made any attempts to split us up. You sit back expecting charity, but why not try to do something on your own to help your situation? You finally get off your ass to do something about it, it starts to work, and then you quit anyways. Stick with it, you may be surprized. I think we very well may be headed toward a realignment, or would have if we didn't have all this BS drama.

maybe the summit did have an effect, but from my point of view indian cossacks showed the opposite, quite clearly. indian cho-ko-nu's indicated that china too was involved and supported your desires for the situation I've illustrated on 4.

5. You talk like we have no concern for the game balance whatsoever. Ask Kuno, every week, every step along the way I've been worried about game balance. Every step along the way. But you guys keep doing crap to force the issue. I assumed early on that we were moving toward a system of three alliances. Russia/China/India vs. Spain/England/Inca vs. Germany/America/France. I even made a point to drop some definite hints to people publically and privately to urge that to happen in the itnerests of balance. But instead of 3 on 3 on 3, you guys all decided to gang up on Russia and I, and you then turned the world into 5 on 4. Spain wasn't working with us AT ALL until you decided to shift the power and start ganging up on us. I was even hoping to try and restore some balance with this latest war, but again you screw it up by quitting and throwing a fit.

I still consider the first war your making. america grovelled for peace until russia's responses and storyline made it near impossible. and we did not gang up on you as I see it, we banded together to defend ourselves against 2 of the largest most powerful countries. china supported you all the time in quiet, adding a third of the top power nations to your side and then finally spain. and frankly I must ask, where on earth do you get the idea that germany, france and america could rival an alliance of russia/india/china? russia alone is bigger than our three nations combined. thats not balance. also, three 3-way alliances is imo bad for the dynamic of the game, which is why I tried distancing myself from america and france and worked towards england and inca. but america was seriously weakened by the loss of boston. i just wanted to help them get back in the game. india could have made it without boston, america likely couldnt.

[Robert]

One more example I wanted to give.
During the summit India made it a big deal that the citizen of Boston were Indian.
Then I proved that they weren't Indian but American, you just left that path immediately. Suddenly it didn't matter anymore if the citizen were indian or american.

That's really poor story writing. If you write a story, stick to it. If your argument for getting Boston back is the Indian population, stick to it. Do not ignore it when it turns against you.

And if I am busy for 30 minutes to create screenshots on how american Boston is, and to present it in a nice way. To get it to Kuno. And then in the end it doesn't matter. A good summit-leader would see the evidence, and would say: "America is right, the citizen are American." but Peter II didn't do that. The facts do not matter in this game because there's a fixed alliance and because in the head of Ozzy the citizen of Boston are Indian. And he won't let that what's in his head to be changed by others or by reality.

That's not good story telling Ozzy.

[Robert]

And maybe you disagree with me.
But tell me, do you understand me?

Do you understand me, though disagree with me.
Or do you not care whatever I say, and do you just disagree with me?

[Robert]

This fight is pretty good for our +1's though

[deity]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
So why is it ok for you to invade a country and not me?

It is OK for you to invade. We are not questioning that.

But a read of the Diplo FAQ would suggest that the bulk of world pressure would most likely keep you checked.

[this does not apply in the end game of course]

[OzzyKP]

A compromis approach from your side would be: "I get Boston, but I'll pay you this and this"

I was prepared to do this. I would have given you sugar for Boston, and maybe more if we had a chance to discuss it. I just listed returning Boston as the starting point, but you just shut down at that point. I didn't have a lot of time OCC to keep goign around in circles and describing the history of the game since the dawn of man from 5 different perspectives. So I just laid out the starting point. And instead of accepting that and going forward, you refused to discuss anymore.

The art of negotiation is like if I was selling an item for 9 dollars, and the most you'd be willing to pay for it is 7. You wouldn't start by offering to pay 7, you'd start by offering 5, and then we'd compromise at 7. That's what I did. I expected you to suggest a counter offer, but you didn't.

I don't want to insult you, but you're mostly busy writing your story. You're good at that. you're the author of your story, but your story is not influenced by anything that happens in the world. It's multiplayer. In your story you have Sita, you have the brilliant plan to find a partner for Sita and have an alliance. But you don't notice that there's someone at your door already, asking for an alliance.

I noticed. I certainly noticed you. I was hoping you would participate. But you didn't. Its a case of you not noticing me, not the other way around. I specifically asked you to participate and you said all your heirs were 3 years old or something. Uh... ok. You've got a 4,000 year old King, and he doesn't have any children over the age of 10. Go figure. I took it as you blowing me off. Or you just trying to ruin everything that I had written and planned for and wanting some special treatment that no one else was giving. Well sorry, I wanted to be fair.

You have a plan with hinduism, and to spread it to Russia. But you miss the storyline with the jews. You never picked up all the things that happend with the jews in Russia. Kuno and me both worked on it, you ignored it, because you didn't notice it, it wasn't written by you.

What storyline? You turning Jewish caused my Hindu leaders to distance themselves. All the assassinations and such in Russia led to the war. All were picked up by me. What else did I miss?

You got Boston, and in your story, Boston immediately was an Indian city. You dreamed about how all americans had left, or became Indian. But the facts are that they were still American, and America had not forgotten it. In your story though, it was all Indian, and you get outraged that someone dares to take it. In your opinion he doens't take it BACK, he just takes it. And if the facts are shown that the city contains of american citizen, it doesn't fit in your story. You just don't accept it. You come with all kind of stories, as if it grew from 1 to 8 under your reign. While it was only from 5 to 7.

Well I apologize, the city was size 2 when I got it, not 1. And I built it up to size 8. The screen shot showing this, 6 turns after I took it, prove this. I shouldn't need to post a screen shot of the city at size 8 to prove that, but I will if I have to.

And you keep on coming with excuses why it is as it is in your story. Once again, you're good at writing your story, but this is a diplo game. We should be allowed to have influence on your story Ozzy. Now it's Ozzy's diplo game, and we are all playing a part in it, but it's the part you want us to play. you decide in your head that India is generous and will not sail to the new world, and you give the new world to the small nations. You don't understand that we don't follow the plans in your head. That we are perhaps too backwards to do that, or lack the money to found distant cities.

I still don't understand how you are hurting for money when you have the best money traits in the whole game being financial & organized. PLUS you have the shrine for the biggest religion in the game. India is not financial and doesn't have any shrines for my religions, so you have to be doing much better than me. Heck you must be doing better than England and the Inca, yet they are both going over seas.

And you are right, I can't expect that you'll follow what I had in my head. You are of course free to pick any strategy you like. In my head it seemed like going to the new world would be the best, most successful strategy for you to take. I still think that. If you pick a less successful strategy... then how is that my fault? If you try to conquer me and you fail.. how is that my fault?

Ozzy, please understand what WE say. You talk all the time about how we don't understand you, but that's because we don't want to be a player in your book. We want to be an equal player in a diplomacy game. Why did you not pick up LzPrst plan to kill or kidnap the indian King. That would have been an awesome story thread. But it was not yours, you couldn't use it, thus you quicly ended the line.

Lz sent riders out to kill Chanakya, and I devoted an entire post to it. I mentioned it later in another post too. I thought that was a quite enjoyable sub plot.

I came with accusions that Sita might have been killed by the Russian 'murdere Tsar' but you didn't react on it, you just ignored it. You didn't even counter it, or asked for evidence. It was just not a story part from you, so you ignored it.

I did engage you on the Jewish assassination plotline. We had a good back and forth on that.

But I dunno, it didn't seem like a serious accusation you were making. It seemed like you were just throwing out anything you could to mess with us. But please accept my apology for not understanding that you meant it as a serious plotline to be picked up on. I will definitely do a better job of being attentive to that in the future. I'm sorry.


I really do hope that we are heading towards an understanding. I don't want to just keep throwing accusations back and forth for days.

I really do want to keep this game going. So how is this for a generous offer:

We go back to last week's save, and in exchange for returning Boston to India, I will give you my Great Engineer to do with as you please, and a tech or two for you or France to build a wonder.

You, or France, or whatever, could go to the new world and rush build Versailles if you wanted, and thus be able to afford cities in the new world. Or get a golden age with Taj Mahal, or whatever you want. Its a free wonder.

Think about it. I really don't want this game to fall apart.

[LzPrst]

an other thing I would like to add, if you see the end of the great war as similar to the end of world war I in real history, an unfair peace agreement seeking to limit and nerf another nation will naturally cause resentment and an attempt to redress the situation. the only difference was that america in this game, unlike germany in world history was perfectly happy to settle for boston, which can be seen as a simile to the germans in czechoslovakia given over in peace accords. if america had made demands on madras as well, then they would clearly be out of line and I would not have supported it. just as germany invading the rest of czechoslovakia in real history was out of line. yet america is weak and india strong, boston was originally an american city, as rhod says, why is it that india with its huge cities and advanced tech and numerous wonders needs this city so much? it was america's 2nd best city site, what was it to you? could you really not have gone on without it? did you really feel that india needed that city more than america? part of diploing (as I understand it) is giving weaker civs a chance. america could have crushed india when it was weak, but in the interest of balance and stability didnt. india in return goes on a rampage.

It seems that after kuno's post I was right all along. the summit didnt really change anything, it was a waste of time, the only change was that instead of russian cossacks invading, indian cossacks invaded. russia reduced their science rate to 0% in order to field india's army. despite promising neutrality. despite india rejecting russia's compromise, despite all the things that should have factored in. russia was going to support india even if india said they would totally wipe out the southern nations.

and as for our alleged inactivity diplomatically, I once tried to work towards a marriage of royal houses with nolan. no interest was returned. I pm'ed spain and asked them to spread christianity in order to tie our countries closer together. in a way it worked, they agreed to spread christianity, though I had to ask the pope for it as well before I got an answer. I allied together with england in order to build an alliance with someone outside the region. I made several attempts to break apart russia and india after india's violent revolution by pointing out that the royal house that russia was allied with was killed by the revolutionaries and that russia and india had grown apart over the looooooong years since their original alliance. I tried to make tech trades with spain and china. spain rejected me and china is so far ahead that I could offer nothing. the way things are going I will never be able to offer china, russia, india or spain any techs as they are already ahead and freely swapping those advanced techs with eachother. the fact that china hardly ever posts makes it very difficult for nations not already friendly with them to tie closer ties. and the same goes for france.

let me clarify one last time. I dont care if I'm not winning or even doing very badly, I can turn most situations around and even if I cant, I can still have fun with the dynamics of diplomacy.

What I cant work with is permanent alliances in a game where dynamic alliances should be the key. one of the very ideas of a diplogame as I understood it was to allow for weaker nations to have a chance to make an impact by allowing them to use diplomacy as a means to tip the scales.

having the four largest permanently allied ruins that chance for the smaller players. the fact that russia, china, india and spain have as far as I know, never once had any conflict of interest, never made any attempt to retain a techlead by keeping a new tech to themselves, never had any clashes over territory, resources or influence or ever attempted to bully eachother. this has consistently been reserved for the smaller civs who pose no threat or competition in the first place.

now despite the fact that the 4 major nations may not have intended to ally together originally, this is now the case. and these alliances seem near unbreakable. the large nations have no interest in the smaller ones and any attempt from the small to be part of the game is shut down by the major powers, all of them.

now maybe I'm mistaken, but as I see it large powers would benefit from supporting smaller nations who will then be grateful and help them in their contest with other large powers. furthermore large powers would stand to gain more from attempting to reduce the strength of their largest competitors, possibly by using the weaker nations to fight for them or with them.

now I must ask india, since your army would easily have conquered boston, would you have stopped there? if yes, why did you build such a huge army and threaten with vassalization-like demands on america and germany? you said you wished to rent mercenaries to retake boston AND possibly more american land. you also stated that germany must be weakened. how could you accomplish this without conquering large parts of america, france and germany? what else would you have done with your huge army? what was america supposed to do after you took more of their cities? what was germany and france supposed to do after you took theirs? france has 4 cities, I have 3 (4 more on islands though)

and then I must ask russia, what do you think India would do with the huge army that you supported them with? would it be in your interest to have india grow stronger and stronger until their only other bordering rival was yourself? would it be in your interest to make india more powerful than yourself?

china and spain, what did you gain by giving india cho-ko-nu's and agreeing to fight for them? what was your gain by supporting india in growing stronger? wouldnt it be in spains or chinas interest to weaken their strongest rivals india and russia by supporting the weak enemies of these strong rivals?

I understand that you had circumstantial alliances, but arent any of you thinking in long term strategies and balance of power? if peter is indeed a realist he of all should recognize that alliances are secondary to national interests. russia could have used india as a tech partner and a buffer for southern aggression, while ensuring that they could never threaten russia by occasionally strengthening the south.

I dont know what you're thinking, but I do know that as it is now, theres no point in playing, because the weak cant compete with the strong, they cant ally with the strong and they cant split the strong against eachother.

thats why I'm not interested in continuing this game. I was desiring a dynamic game, this is not. and hasnt been for several thousand years.

[LzPrst]

and in reply to ozzy, the reason america isnt leading in tech is the same reason germany isnt leading in tech. we have good land. but we have very very little of it. my cities on the mainland share at least 3-4 squares with eachother and 4-8 squares with france. my colonies have a lot of water tiles as they are built on small islands. that makes for small slowgrowing cities, with little potential, which doesnt give much towards the economy\science equation.

now the size of our land is unfortunate, but I've managed thanks to my islands. france is screwed however, but I dont know what they're thinking or doing (though new world should definitively have been a priority for them), but america had a good city close to home with several luxury resources. america probably figured that you'd accept the loss of boston as you already had more land, more resources and every other kind of advantage. and they didnt lose the war, they won, you surrendered and ceded boston. america won that war. you + russia + china and somewhat spain, won the next one, go figure

if you count your latest invasion as an extension of the american move on boston, then the american move on boston should be considered an extension of the great war. both were treaties signed and later broken. unfair treaties maybe, but nonetheless, if you sign it you sign it, declaring it invalid just because you dont like it is dishonorable. now the same goes for america, but at least they had a greater need and a better claim to the city.

i dont know what to do. going back in time isnt very fulfilling, staying where we are really isnt much good either, starting again... oy veh, thats a lot of lost time, writing efforts and hassle wasted. I'm willing to continue, I've cooled off a little. as you probably realized, seeing hours and hours of diplomacy, apparently wasted, and actually it turns out it was, made me certain that my suspicions were correct, the superpowers were all in league together unchangeably, despite their assurances that they werent.

what would any of you have done? I got angry, and maybe I acted rashly, but to some extent I feel that it was justified. unflinching support of friends\allies isnt always good for your civ or good for roleplaying, but this was the case and it really seemed that nothing would change that. give me a reason to play if I'm small and cant affect or deal with the big ones? thats what I felt and why I left. maybe we can work things out, I dont know. I'm willing to try, but to some extent this particular game has taken some heavy hits to the bough.

[Robert]

But I dunno, it didn't seem like a serious accusation you were making. It seemed like you were just throwing out anything you could to mess with us. But please accept my apology for not understanding that you meant it as a serious plotline to be picked up on. I will definitely do a better job of being attentive to that in the future. I'm sorry.

Thanks! That's indeed exactly what I meant!
I didn't came with things that were all serious facts or stuff, I just wanted to paint a general image. And you are right if not all my examples are completely true etc. It's the general picture. And I'm perfectly happy that you will try to pick it up.

I'm sure that next game, when I know more of your style of diplogaming, I will be more eager to send in my king for your daughter (just an example, I'm sure you'll try something new next game)

We have different styles of diplogaming and we need to merge. This discussion is not for who's right or who's wrong (Despite the fact that we of course are right and you are wrong ) (j/k)
This is for understanding each other.

Now the last question is: do you really want to continue? If you do want to continue, I'll be a part of it. But I don't want pitty. Maybe my storyline will be from this moment on that I'll fight myself death and hurt my archenemy India as much as possible in my fall

I'd rather restart though.

[deity]

I think a restart will fail at this point.

I'd rather go back to the 1255AD save and play it properly (Russia!)