HOTW V - Set Up Thread II, or The Return of the Mods

[LzPrst]

hrmf... Omni has my full trust in all aspects diplomatic, but it seems he needs some more experience in the war department

as for my return... I honestly dont know, but I might stay another week... I'm really enjoying myself here. weathers been gorgeous (a little rain today, the skies are mourning Germany's loss ) and life is good and calm. and I also got company, friend of mine has dropped by so its not all that calm anymore. and he has a laptop with a gprs connection

cant play civ with it, but I can keep my eyes open

[deity]

Hi lz.

Omni is a great find for diplo games and I'm sure he would have played different if he'd played Germany from the beginning.

As it was he provoked America constantly, in the same vein as you provoked Spain So I guess you briefed him!

Inevitably this behaviour was going to lead to an attack on Germany and despite Germany's massive manufacturing capability the German cities were very poorly defended - just a few units in most cities. If you look at the save you'll see that everyone else's cities are solidly protected.

So with German provocation America launches a blitz attack, taking two cities very easily and could have taken out all of old Germany. Thanks to Cyber's restraint and diploing he stopped at two cities and then forged an alliance together I believe.

Omni naivlely expected England to suddenly rush in and help. I had warned him much earlier to not incite a war.

So Germany provokes war when she's poorly defended and expected her allies to pay the price.

Germany then turned on England and cancelled our long time alliance. Not sure what you think about this?

No hard feelings Omni but what you did made no sense at all gameplay wise, particularly as we are in the last stage of the game and you built Apollo now.

[deity]

SS victory rules

It's a shame the game mechanics doesn't allow shared SS building for alliances (as opposed to teams).

That said I just want to clarify whether we should allow ceding cities to achieve this aim?

On balance I think I would vote NO but thought I better bring it up before someone does it because ceding cities is not against the rules.

Thoughts?

[Robert]

I think ceding cities is a form of pretty poor gameplay. I wonder if anyone is interested in doing so anyway. Btw, I don't see why you need many SS building cities anyway. Only for the first SS parts multiple cities are needed, after that 1 or 2 cities are mostly enough.

Regarding GErmany, Germany was pretty well defended. I think with at least 8 units in the border cities. That's still not very strong, but not really weak. The fault Germany made was focussing on building bombers. Bombers only are handy for offensive duties, not for defending.

I focussed on weakening his defense first with artillery (about 12 artillery attacks on orleans, 6 of them bringing the cultural defense down). Besides that most of my tanks got collatoral damage upgrades (2). Omni moved all his troops into this city as soon as I started the attack. The collatoral damage broke him.

It was a blitz attack on him indeed, but not out of the blue I think.

What I wonder most about is why Omni chosed to be a nazi / fascist germany, while he didn't got the intention for offensive actions. In the beginning I was very scared that he would try to take Washington (Temple of Salomon and oil resource), that's why I started to build up my army. But in the end it seemed like he had no units for such an attack. He builded up an athmosphere of hate betweeen America and Germany, did the all hitler-thing, but was in fact peacefully..........

Omni, you really should explain that! What was your reason for being a nazi?

[Prussia]

You know whats really ironic about what you just said, CyberShy?

You were comparing Omni to Hitler, when one of Omni's biggest intentions is to keep the Jewish faith and the Temple of Solomon alive.

[KunojiLym]

RL Aryans = IG Zionists

Hey, they even killed Rama! *shakes fist*

[Robert]

Originally posted by Prussia
You know whats really ironic about what you just said, CyberShy?

You were comparing Omni to Hitler, when one of Omni's biggest intentions is to keep the Jewish faith and the Temple of Solomon alive.

[LzPrst]

well, to reveal a little behind the scenes thinking, I wanted a war first spain, later america
spains loss of their colonies would devastate all their naval capacity securing those lands for me and get me coal (and oil?) but it never came to that due to the diplomatic developments.

a war with america could get me the temple and oil and some nice colonies. I wanted to use my production strength for late-game warfare. it seems those wicked plans are broken :s

oh well, we'll see what happens later. as I said, I think omni needs some practice in civ4 warfare. my plan was to have a strong fleet securing the rest of germany reducing the front to only the american one where we could get really strong and allow us to blitz and blast. it seems to me omni saw the fleet as an end in itself. this was not discussed in detail it should be noted. I merely said, "try a little skirmish against them or them, or try this diplomatically and have a strong fleet".

[OzzyKP]

Re: SS victory rules

Originally posted by deity
It's a shame the game mechanics doesn't allow shared SS building for alliances (as opposed to teams).

That said I just want to clarify whether we should allow ceding cities to achieve this aim?

On balance I think I would vote NO but thought I better bring it up before someone does it because ceding cities is not against the rules.

Thoughts?

I agree, no city gifting. That is just unnatural and not good for the game.

[Prussia]

INDEED.

BURN, BABY, BURN!

[The Capo]

Well, personally I don't agree with NO-City Swapping, but I understand how it can be construed as unfair by people who are trying to win the Space victory condition.

But I think this should open up the old debate as to how we will name a victor in the game. I have always been of the opinion that for the purposes of a diplogame the space victory is a little unrealistic; mainly because it isn't a victory in a diplomatic measure.

I have a potential solution; I think we should continue to play the game even after the space victory (if possible) and play until "time runs out."

This way it gives rise to multiple victories/outcomes, and also won't end the game on what I consider a technicality (diplogame-wise). I mean, if we end it on space victory conditions there is just going to be an all out war, or even a nuclear war/sabatoge operation by countries who would be inclined to stop certain civs from getting to space first. Basically what I am saying is that it may lead to an entire breakdown in the diplomacy part of the game. Especially when certain "space states" will focus their energies on developing their space program.

Again, I am not saying I think the space victory is stupid, I am just saying I never considered it a fitting end to a diplogame. I think this warrants a discussion.

Thoughts?

[Robert]

I think the only way to decide who's the winner is the space race. It has everything. It has techonology, it has production capacity, and because of the wars that will break out it has war tactics as well. A time victory is an anti-climax. A diplo victory will never happen, cultural or domination victory is anti-climax as well and conquest victory needs another 489 sessions.

Civ has been designed for a space race victory, that's the only way to go imho.

[Prussia]

Not to mention that if you play "until time runs out" you get to put really cheesy stories up, like, "So the peoples of [Insert Country Here] lived for the rest of time in peace, and harmony. What will await them in the future? Only time can tell."

[The Capo]

I don't see how that would be the case. And I never said Space wasn't a good way to win, I just said for Diplogames I feel like it isn't enough.

[deity]

Originally posted by The Capo
I don't see how that would be the case. And I never said Space wasn't a good way to win, I just said for Diplogames I feel like it isn't enough.

It has to end though.................................