HOTW V - Set Up Thread II, or The Return of the Mods

[OzzyKP]

It was partly self-restraint, partly strategy, and partly simple game mechanics that held me back at least. I focused on vertical growth instead of horizontal growth. Plus I couldn't afford to set up lots of colonies. I wasn't financial or organized, so the upkeep costs were a burden. It is easier for small civs to expand. Civ4 is really nice that way.

[The Capo]

I don't really think we have much to worry about, and it seems like a lot of you operate under the mentality that there is some type of problem with the way this game progressed politically.

Firstly, there is nothing wrong with big blocs, it happens in the real world and especially in a situation like we experienced leading up to this period of time. Alliances shifted because politics shifted, and initially there were multiple alliances (Spain-China, England/Germany/Inca, India-America, Russia-India) going on at once. But Spain had a fear of Russia, China antagonized Russia, and England/Germany were wary of Russian power. The spy attacks just made this more pronounced so Spain, China, Germany, and England aligned themselves. This is the exact same line of thinking that (not to bring this up) Lz and Cyber had when they thought everyone was ganging up on them for OOC reasons, now Lz is aligned with Spain and Cyber is aligned with India. I'm just saying, you can't look at what's going on right now and ignore what lead up to it.

Secondly, it doesn't really matter how many countries you put into the game, you're going to see similar things occur because (a) its a videogame and nobody actually gets hurt in a war, (b) its easier to use your weapons and military means because of this, and (c) its supposed to be FUN, remember that word fun, and we like this style of game because we LIKE to get involved in what's going on. It is a Diplogame, not a HISTORY game, which means we are supposed to involve ourselves in international diplomacy. Sometimes this leads us to international war, but that is just how it goes.

I think we're far too eager to try and DO certain things instead of play out what actually happens in the game. I am guilty of this myself, but I don't think there is any problem with world wars in Diplogames, and I really don't think there was anything wrong with this game, especially anything we should actively try and change.

[Robert]

The Capo: I don't like that some people are claiming they have been attacked by terrorists when they haven't (America and Inca)

Excuse me.......?

Seriously, The Capo: Excuse me?

[The Capo]

I thought/think the claim you made that you were attacked by terrorists in the brief session we had was false. I may be wrong, but I was under the impression it wasn't an actual attack. I didn't realize Germany had Scotland Yard, because I certainly didn't do it and Russia, as far as I know, is the only other country that has it. If I am wrong I apologize.

[Robert]

No problem
One of my iron mines has been destroyed by a spy. I suspect germany. I may be wrong.

Though even if I wasn't attacked I think that I may bring up false accusions. I'm just not the person (Lincoln) to start such accusions. If I were George W. Bush that would be another story (I'm a Bush fan, remember! )

[NicodaMax]

Prussia's effort is greatly appreciated, and Nolan's help as well.....and yes, I'm still here, barely. I will make a great effort (timewise at least) and finish reading all the posts and work with and around what Prussia has posted, which is probably more than I ever had anyways

I'll be here next fiday as well, see ya then

[deity]

1) Primarily you play civ to win - this is the lynch-pin that binds any competitive game

2) A diplo game is primarily a civ game where strategies and conflicts are negotiated by the in game characters leading a civ

3) Role playing is a colourful expansion of 2 and is subsidiary to 1 & 2.

If you play out a story line for its own sake or history's sake and not in concert with the primary goals you are defeating the objective. Sure, the journey's the thing but the journey is sweetest if all are competing to ultimately win within the context and intrigue of of diplo-gaming (and not axemen at 6 paces).

Throwing away the win, or even a place, is non-competitive.

I would never create a fantasy story line that thwarted the gameplay of my civ's chance of improving or winning. Seeing England come from last to second in this game through diplomatic means is what makes it enjoyable for me. I enjoy all the other civ's stories and see that as colour for the game.

---

Just a few late night thoughts to explain the way I play.

[deity]

BTW Terra maps are the only way to go. This game has proven it.

I'll be the this week as usual, maybe an early everyone to get the start technicalities sorted?

[Robert]

I'll be there next friday.
I agree with Deity on his first post.

I'll be away for vacation the following fridays:

Friday July 7th: available
Friday July 14th: available
Friday July 21st: vacation
Friday July 28th: available
Friday August 4th: vacation
Friday August 11th: vacation
Friday August 18th: available

I'll try to find a sub for me. Perhaps I'll ask Omni to sub, he's deep into this game and into the roleplaying. That might be best for the game. (Are you reading this, Omni? )

[Prussia]

I apologize about my posts, and I take full responsibility for the content and all the flaws and mistakes in them.

I guess I got a little carried away, and didn't step back and realize that essentially what I was posting was, "I have 7 billion nuclear missles! HAHAHAHA! TAKE THAT HEATHENS!"

...

(In a way)

My computer has been screwey and I have been busy recently so I am sorry it hasn't been fixed sooner.

I especially apologize to Nicoda for basically attempting to control his nation.

However, if none have any objections, I would love to remain a sub.

[OzzyKP]

Taking this out of the story thread.

Originally posted by The Capo
Rasputin, I respect your candor so much, however I have to say you are so wrong it borders on the insane.

What "Prussia" did in this situation was to say that Russian assailants captured and murdered their President's daughter....

Firstly this is wrong on TWO accounts; the first is that he INVENTED a daughter to be captured/killed. The second is the Russian complicity.

We give GREAT liscence in making up stories, but they have to be based on actual events in some proper semblence. In this case the Incan player (Prussia in this situation), invented a scenario where RUSSIAN agents captured and killed his leader's daughter. This is wrong on two fronts; the first is that this NEVER ACTUALLY HAPPENED; I think we can all agree that this DID NOT occur, because it CAN NOT occur in Civilization. The second is because there are no explanatory game mechanics which allow this action.

Secondly; the Incan player assigned a nationality to terrosits that NEVER EXISTED IN THE FIRST PLACE, this creates an environment where all players are allowed to MAKE UP their own story of events, even if there are NO EVENTS to susbstantiate them. This is a horrible avenue for diplogames to traverse.

Now, understand that I am NOT trying to stymie the creativity of our players, however, I don't think we can reconcile PRETEND stories with what happens in the game, it is firstly unfair to all players, but ALSO more importantly unfair to the game of Civilization; we should all play within the PARAMETERS of our game of choice.

That said, I appreciate Prussia's removal of his posts.

Thank you.

Peace.

The whole story Prussia posted imho is fine except for two things. First he mentioned technology that doesn't exist yet (he wasn't in the game yet, so he didn't know), and he pinned it on Russia. If the story was exactly the same and it was internal dissidents, then it'd be fine in my book.

I'm really surprized Capo that you're upset because he "INVENTED a daughter to be captured/killed." You do that all the time. Hell you've invented dozens of daughters, and cousins, and son-in-laws, and... yea you've got the most extensive family tree I've ever seen in a diplogame.

You are certainly allowed to make up characters and do whatever you want with them. Bringing in another civ changes things however.

Inca can't just say "Russian tanks have invaded and are shelling Cuzco". That's just way over the top and obviously made up. He could however say "my daugher has been kidnapped and some suspect Russian agents are behind it".

Ok how about this for a rule/guideline:
You can make up stories about things which there is no game mechanic to cover.

So creating a daughter and having her be kidnapped is allowed since there is no game mechanic to cover that. Tanks invading a capitol city is not allowed since invasions, tanks, war is all a game mechanic.

If I said China blew up my town, I can't just make that up since it would contradict with a real game mechanic of using spies to blow up towns.

So yea, make up whatever you want as long as it doesn't contradict what actually happened in the game.

[Robert]

Sounds fair to me.

[Prussia]

I apologize about the russian part... Especially to the Russians.

[The Capo]

Sorry, I wasn't very clear in that post, I wasn't taking offense to the fact that he made up a daughter, I was taking offense to the fact that he made up a daughter only to accuse the Russians of an attack on her, that was what I was taking offense to.

Also I was intoxicated when I wrote that.

But yeah, I agree with what Ozzy says. I mean the point is the game, if we start making things up outside of the game and then make it amount to an attack in the game, then what's the point of playing the game?

I mean, should I be able to go around saying there are terrorists in my country and then deciding where they come from, and who is backing them?

I mean, then I'd be like George W. Bush, and I would have no choice but to kick myself in the nuts.

[Robert]

The Capo, in response to your reaction in the story thread, do you realise that you can make things up to cover up you in-game actions?

Apparantly the Inca's were about to declare war on Russia, and there was a story-telling reason made up for that. Which is good imho.