HOTW V - Set Up Thread II, or The Return of the Mods

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Ozzy, can you react on my issues regarding the 'unequal peace' that cannot be compared with the equal peace I offered to you, with compensations?
And can you answer that you think that it's possible that an unequal peace treaty can last?

How were the treaties any different?

But lets first start with the first peace offer. When your forces were amassed outside of Madras you demanded I give over the city or you will march all through India and take more cities and destroy my land. You said if I'd give you Madras that we'd be at peace and you could focus on taking Russian cities.

So when you had the upper hand you demanded an important Indian city that had founded two religions AND demanded that I stay neutral while you conquer my ally.

You told me plainly that if I did not agree to those terms you would march through India and take more cities and pillage more land.

Thankfully the cause of justice won that war, and the peace terms I gave you were for India to retain Boston (which by the way I already had), and to stop sending Jewish missionaries north (my initial request that led America to provoke a war over), and free access for my missionaries to go to American lands.

Compared to the "treaty" you offered me for Madras, I think my deal was much fairer. The missionary thing really was a minor matter. Especially since soon after signing the deal I noticed that the English & Inca already had caravels, so much of that treaty wasn't active anyways since you could just stick your units on an English/Incan caravel to send north.

So I don't see what you're complaining about.

Furthermore, the deal you gave me when you were assaulting Boston was no different than the deal I gave you. You demanded Boston and demanded free access for your missionaries to Indian lands.

How is that any more or less equal than what I offered you?

I really don't see where you are coming from with this "unequal peace" stuff.

[KunojiLym]

The problem, Cyber, is that to reveal the IC explainations for Russia's and Spain's actions will be tantamonous to exposing all the secret diplomacy that has been going on behind the scenes. Are you *sure* that is what you want?

And as for OOC, I had already acknowledged that earlier, as deity had highlighted. Namely, the decision to upgrade Indian knights to cossasks rathar than just supply the upgrade muney for calvarly. I hope you realize that this, by itself, is already a big exposure of a part of the secret diplomancy. Full IC explainations, unfortunatedly, will most definatedly have to wait until this games is over and done with.

So until then, I ask that you be patient, Cyber.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by CyberShy
If ooc feelings play a part in this? Perhaps to The Capo and Ozzy, since they are real time friends? (though the same would count for Dragon and me, though we have an in-game explanation for our alliance, India/Spain lacks that explanation)

I think Capo and I have yelled at each other far more over the years than said nice things.

But still, you are grasping at straws. You move from one argument to another.

You say all the big powers are ganging up on the little ones, and I showed you that the alliance came together naturally and IC-wise, and FAIRLY.

Then you say that the fair way the alliance started was against diplogaming because it involved pacman. Which is just bizarre.

Then you say that America is small and I should just have pity on you and give you my city and turn on my allies.

Then you say India is wrong for breaking a peace treaty, ignoring the fact that you did the same thing, and did it FIRST.

Then you say that the treaty I gave you was an "unequal peace" whereas the treaty you gave me was an "equal peace". Then I show you that they are exactly the same, and you offered much worse during the Great War.

Now you say that Capo and I are only allied because we are friends OOC.

What's next, we are only attacking you because you are a fan of George Bush?

I really think we just need to move on here and stop with the accusations and creating more bad blood. All this hostility and name calling is bad for this game and bad for diplogaming in general.

[NicodaMax]

Something I forgot to mention: game balance is such an important thing here, but different people rarely perceive it equally. It is through diplomacy that we should try to convince others that a certain strategy or path will lead to a better balance of powers and not through the definition of what is fair or not fair.

4. Role-playing

I don’t think that there are any problems with the Role-Playing in this particular game (in fact, I’m amazed at how much time and effort is put into it ), except maybe that there should be more people doing it (me included), and that means assuming certain character traits, creating a storyline, etc. My only problem is that when particular storylines force actions that are not in accord with the best strategy game wise…
Well, tell us something new!
That’s the fun part of these types of games, trying to do both things at the same time.

5. Psychodynamics

This is a term that I made up to describe the way different people react differently to a common event, though later I found out that this actually exists and its about “Understanding and anticipating the range of specific conscious and unconscious responses to specific sensory inputs (e.g.: images, colors, textures, sounds, etc.), in this case, a CIV game…

Oh what the hell!, I don’t know where I’m going with this anymore. I just want to say that we should be more tolerant of each other’s quirks, comments and attitudes. We should keep our discussions civil, and above all, we should try to have fun with the game we have and try our best to get the best out of it. If one of us feels that he is being gang banged, well, just more of a challenge it will be to fix the situation. I feel privileged to be able to play with all of you, to have a way to consistently play civ the way it was meant to be played (imho) and even if I was in lzprst’s shoes I’d be happy and enjoying myself as I play.

[The Capo]

Well said.

Now with that hopefully we can put this issue behind us and get down to some diplomacy...

Following the Great World War, the Americans plotted to retake Boston. They developed their own military prowess while hiring foreign mercenaries (from Germany and France) under the banner of Judaism, and in a more important sense freedom of the southern states to establish their own destinies without Indian intervention.

Meanwhile in India King Ashoka put into place a new order, one indirectly founded on pacifism (which ironically saw its origins in France) and Confucian law. This new era ushered into effect a peaceful, and tolerant India which explained the rise in culture that Boston experienced. After many decades of Indian rule the city of Boston became a glorious city, a shining example of what cooperation could muster; the only problem was that the city was acquired through blood.

The Americans quickly marched their army to Boston, demanding that India return the city or feel the wrath of their army. Ashoka hesitated, and to prove their seriousness the Americans launched small attacks on the city, eventually breaking Ashoka into capitulation. The city was turned over to America and the pre-war borders were restored...

Following this uneasy peace the Russo-Indian alliance saw many changes; namely the conversion of the Russian nobility to Christianity, and the return of Hinduism in India (trumping Confucion Law, the creed of the former leader Ashoka). A coup staged by General Pusyamitra eventually collapsed into chaos; seeing the demise of not only the General, but renowned Indian diplomat Chanakya. Eventually a powerful leader, Rajaraja Chola came to power along with Hinduism and the promise of a powerful India, including the return of Boston.

The Indians pressed for the return of Boston, sent armies and word of war to America, France and Germany. They claimed that since the army was international Germany and France were just as guilty of aggression as America, and would face the wrath of the Indian military. Russia saw the rise of a new faith as well, Christianity became predominate eventually becoming the official faith of the Czar Peter II. The faith saw its rise into Spain as well, cementing Russia and Spain under one God and Church. A defensive pact was signed and Russia called for a Summit to quell the tension between India and America. But it was to no avail...

What will happen next???

(So who confirms, I do)

[Robert]

Ozzy, you don't understand me
And I'm afraid that nothing can be done to make you understand me
So I'll stop talking

I'm really curious to your IC reasons Kuno!

[deity]

I'm still catching up here...

ozzy: Everyone here is saying there is something wrong with gifting units... uhh, do you guys remember that's how this whole thing started with Germany & France gifting their units to America? Why is it only bad if people give their units to India?

Gifting units is fine ozzy. There is an issue about upgrading to another civs unique units though or being gifted unique units.

I think you are still missing the point though.

This game has an unreal power balance, proven by some OOC admissions already.

India attacking America is OK.

America attacking India is OK.

If you can't see what the problem is we have to agree to disagree I guess.

[deity]

Originally posted by The Capo
Spain had NO plans to give Conqs to India what so ever, it is ridiculous that you guys THINK you are making a valid argument by repeating it, ask Kuno and ask Ozzy and they'll tell you the same thing. That was never discussed.

LOL, so if the war by India against America goes bad you will NOT gift those 6 or more Conqs you have there as "Observers"....??!!

India has on tap, Cossacks, Cho's and Conq's - ALL right next to Boston!

We are not stupid, particarly given what's been said so far.

BTW England was fooled by Russia in to not getting involved, otherwise America may have had much better defence and Gunpowder.

[deity]

Damn, still not up to date.. stop posting for a day everyone!! Gotta go to work now...

[OzzyKP]

I assume we are just going to play it where it landed at the end of last session.... right?

That'd probably be easiest at this point.

[KunojiLym]

I guess so...

Did I confirm? I'll confirm again just in cast.

[The Capo]

No Spanish soldiers will ever fight under a foreign flag.

Take that information and do whatever you'd like to do with it Deity, I have a few suggestions though...

[Robert]

I'll be there, as I've said before.
I have no problems with soldiers being upgraded to unique units from an allie or something. Though there must be a role-playing/diplomatic reason for it.

[deity]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
I assume we are just going to play it where it landed at the end of last session.... right?

That'd probably be easiest at this point.

I think this is best. Time machine only a second best solution.

I believe we've had a healthy discussion that will strengthen this game and all future diplo games.

Capo, maybe some of us, including me, have let slip a few strategic thoughts during this OOC debate but I don't think it harms the game. Besides, as players our strategies keep evolving... we might yet be friends

So I'll be there to pick up the game with the latest save - 1288 I think.

[OzzyKP]

Ok, then I'll post my usual after-session report. I held off cause I didn't know where we were going to pick it up at.