Hotw6?

[LzPrst]

Our regular MP civ game last saturday was quite fun. ozzy the mongol beat up his neighbours until Canton China led by Frank Johnson the Victorious defeated them and all others with the help of superior weapons technology.

anyway. to the tech trading. just to be an ass I'm gonna say something that doesnt help at all, but the research and tech trading in civ4 is a little primitive. base research technology in RL is not spread that way. specific developments of such a technology is spread in a similar way to that of the civ4 tech trading system, but not the actual technology in itself.

regardless, has the following been considered?
1. a gold cost (say 1/3 of the techs cost) paid to the "bank". for example, Japan trades Engineering to Arabia. Engineering is worth 600 beakers so Arabia has to spend 200 gold to manifest the deal. The 200 gold does not go to Japan, it "disappears" as a "retooling" or adaptation cost.

2. A turn limit is placed on tech trading. Technology cannot be traded more often than every 20 turns.

3. A traded tech would require a number of turns to introduce into the infrastructure. Research on other techs should still continue while these turns tick away.

4. A nation that trades away tech, or gets tech could get some negative effect for a number of turns. Similar to when pop-rushing.

I dont know if any of these options are possible to mod or if they would be balanced. The actual numbers suggested are just suggestions, experimentation should be done to ensure that the number of turns\beakers are balanced to achieve the desired effect. Any comments?

[Frank Johnson]

Hehehe. I did enjoy that. Even though I haven't played many MP civ4 games yet, I do seem to be developing a nice plan for victory. Given that my "superior" technology for the decisive battle was a stack of axemen and spearmen, I think it just shows that anyone could have done it if they wanted too. Ozzy's campaign was much more glorious than my own, even though final victory was mine.

As to tech trading...first let me tell you the problem I've seen in past games.

For one thing, everyone seems to sit around and tech trade. It also offers up the annoying situation of having to coordinate with 7 or 8 other players, checking diplomacy screens for new techs, then quickly exploiting any tech discovery you make to those 7 or 8 players ASAP. Basicly, in my opinion, it takes the focus off the building of the civ, and your strategic position in it, and makes the game less fun.

It takes away from the distinctions or specialities between civilizations that make diplomacy and interaction overall unique and enjoyable.

It puts the game on a dead end track to a space race victory, with few options for deviation.

Now as to how to fix the problem, let me suggest we keep it simple. As far as I know, the full set of moding tools for civ4 isn't even available yet. But then again I haven't been keeping up, and even if they are our mastery over them isn't nearly as developed as it was in past versions of the game.

Check no tech trading, and use open boarders to improve economy and tech between players you want to assist. Both parties benefit, however the lesser of the two parties will gain a larger percentage boost from the agreement. If someone makes you mad, close your borders. Simple. This allows us to support our allies in the area of tech and economy with our destroying the strategic importance of tech selection.

Although I'd love to implement some kind of measured tech trading, now probably isn't the right time to try it, and if we do have a diplo game now I'd rather have no tech trades.

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Frank Johnson
Hehehe. I did enjoy that. Even though I haven't played many MP civ4 games yet, I do seem to be developing a nice plan for victory. Given that my "superior" technology for the decisive battle was a stack of axemen and spearmen, I think it just shows that anyone could have done it if they wanted too. Ozzy's campaign was much more glorious than my own, even though final victory was mine.

Omni wasn't at all expecting me to unload a couple Keshiks outside of Paris by boat. I totally caught him with his pants down while he was sending units overland to attack me from Maliland. I'm especially proud of that.

Then with DD, I sent a limited force to his east and after a few turns of causing trouble there (and hopefully drawing his attention that way) I sent my main force through the west and took his capitol. Of course he was so weakly defended no matter what strategy I used I would have overcame him.

And while I was busy playing with OT, Lz, and DD, Frank was building up a badass army.

[NicodaMax]

Is there anybody out there who can or is willing to play on any weekday starting about 9-10 pm? (times are UTC-4 or EST) otherwise I might as well give up
How about a normal MP game, tomorrow night maybe?
Pleeeeease!

[OmnipotentTrout]

Originally posted by OzzyKP


Omni wasn't at all expecting me to unload a couple Keshiks outside of Paris by boat. I totally caught him with his pants down while he was sending units overland to attack me from Maliland. I'm especially proud of that.

By Vishnu and all the French gods, you are full of suprises! I learnt a valuable lesson there. *turning paranoid*

Hail Ozzy tactical master!

As for lzprst's thoughts for a brave new world of tech trading: How on Terra are we going to achieve that complex system of tech trading??? I think your ideas are very good , but I can't see them happening, or do I lack some new info on modding?

I'm voting for turning off tech trade. Quick and only mildly dirty

Open borders, economic support and gifting units has always come prior to full tech trade in RL. Just take the Joint Strike Fighter: Norway is only getting the aircraft without all the "goodies" technology. The US is keeping it for themselves...

- OmniT

[LzPrst]

bah! thats because the norwegian government is a bunch of sissies. if they had any brains they'd tie themselves closer to europe and get in on the eurofighter, that would be far more beneficial and they might get some neat tech stuff out of it...

anyway.

I am not wholly against the idea of tech trading. its just that I feel that civ4 diplomacy is so... blunt. you cant agree to give up an individual square of land. very annoying. culture borders have a life totally of their own. very annoying, and the open borders are way too open. If there was a limitation to tech trading, one trade agreement deal and one military passage agreement instead of one open borders deal things would be oh so much sweeter. just mentioning for you hardcore modders.

but sure. lets give a diplo game with the no tech trades checked. it will be interesting to see the development compared to HOTW5 that has quite a lot of tech trading.

I'm just afraid that it will give those with good land even more advantages as weaker civs wont be able to trade up and if the AI runs your civ in the ground one session you cant play then you'll never catch up....

[LzPrst]

not to mention that there will reduce reasons for civs to conduct diplomacy....

[Abyssal_Nuclei]

Perhaps instead of giving you the tech it would allow you to research the tech 2-3 times (or so) as fast, because your researchers have to implement the information they were given.

But NTT sounds good to me.

Lets get this game going !

[OmnipotentTrout]

OK, it seems that there is a growing agreement on no tech trade for HOTW6 as an experiment if nothing else.

Now over to the problem of arranging playtime/gamestart and who is to host...

Easter enters and may be an issue. I will be out cold drunk this saturday (the only way of getting a greater high than Diplogames )

But I guess Both me and Lzprst will be able to play when we meet for easter back home next Saturday night (CET).

Can everyone raise a virtual hand in favour of starting:

April 15th (Saturday) 23:00 CET



- OmnipotentTrout

[LzPrst]

aye. me play saturday 15th.

[LzPrst]

ok, newsupdate for the good people of HOTW6.

last night the HOTWV had problems and didnt get off the ground. as a result 5 of us started up a new epic length game with no tech trading on a Terra map. it seems to work altogether rather well. however it DOES, reduce the amount of diplomacy conducted especially in the early game. we played to 400 AD. During that time I dont think I opened the diplomacy window with one of my fellow players once...

of course, I didnt want any open border treaties (cause I like to be alone ) and aside from that there were not many reasons to make diplomacy. however, I do suspect that further into the game this will change.

It would be very interesting to see how it develops. though it should probably be noted that I will win hands down

[OzzyKP]

You guys were just doing it wrong.

No border treaties? No resource trades? No wars? Booring.

[deity]

Well, there is a major culture war going on between Nicoda, me and Cyber... will post map later.

[deity]

Nicoda and I are about... thought you Euros might be on any minute.. ? We've got a few hours to play.

[deity]

Originally posted by LzPrst
ok, newsupdate for the good people of HOTW6.

last night the HOTWV had problems and didnt get off the ground. as a result 5 of us started up a new epic length game with no tech trading on a Terra map. it seems to work altogether rather well. however it DOES, reduce the amount of diplomacy conducted especially in the early game. we played to 400 AD. During that time I dont think I opened the diplomacy window with one of my fellow players once...

of course, I didnt want any open border treaties (cause I like to be alone ) and aside from that there were not many reasons to make diplomacy. however, I do suspect that further into the game this will change.

It would be very interesting to see how it develops. though it should probably be noted that I will win hands down

He he Leading a diplo game can be a very dangerous business...

So is this HOTW6 or just a diplo-light without posts?

We can only call it HOTW6 IF we post at least one para per session EACH. In which case we need to open a story/status thread. Or for the lights should we start another naming convention since they are terra maps and not world maps. Eg HOT1 (History Of Terra One).