A great big hello from a long time lurker

[Ming]

Yep... the mids costs way too many hammers. Even if you are industrious or have stone, chopping is needed to build it first at the higher levels. (Unless you are both ind and have stone )

Plus, BW provides many other key advantages

[Norselord]

I am using Suleiman to try to figure out the best path to a good SE/Warlord/Espionage strategy.

Getting both the GW and 'mids is a tough one.

What do you suppose are key wonders and techs to optimize this strategy? My thoughts:

Techs (no particular order):
- Farming (+food)
- Fishing (+food)
- BW (chop)
- Masonry (GW and 'mids)
- Writing (library and research)
- Alphabet (tech trading/spies)
- COL (courthouses/religion)
After this it gets a little muddy for me...tips?

Wonders
- Great Wall
- Pyramids
- Zeus
- Great Library
- Parthenon
Again, it gets a little muddy here. Obviously anything increasing Espionage, Research rate, and adds to benefits of specialists.

If Universal Suffrage comes out before a clear win can be established would a corporation economy be viable? All of the GP from the SE and the tech lead should allow the player to create corporations at will.

As far as a victory condition, it is either spaceship, diplomatic, or an eventual domination win by using ultramodern warlord units.

[rah]

You will also more than likely end up being first to COL, this allows you to found a religion. Founding a religion will assist you in getting other civs to DOW on you, if you don't spread it. Founding a religion obviously has other bennies that don't need to be spelled out. The other added help from COL is a slight boost in espionage/commerce from the courthouses.

Just be patient. Spread it only to civs that already have a religion. Unless you're trapped on a landmass other civs will spread theirs fast enough.

[Brael]

I think I would drop Zues, the higher the level the better the WW modifier is for the AI, I think it only takes 50% on deity, 60% on Immortal, and +10% per easier level after that. Like I posted in the other thread, there's the possibility (needs more testing) that it zero's the AI's WW as well. If you're fighting in your own territory the WW won't be an issue anyways. There's also the side effect that Zues acts as a deterrent to civs declaring war on you.

You might be able to drop the Parthenon as well. If you're running any sort of elite military what about the Paya and going for Pacifism which normally requires a mid game tech? You could get a 100% GP boost and in my experience it's a wonder that isn't a high AI priority, unlike the Parthenon. It also helps that gold is usually more common than marble, though being able to do both wonders would obviously be better.

[Ming]

It really depends on what level you are playing at. At the lower levels, you can wonder whore and get pretty much what ever you want. At emp and above, you really have to cherry pick the ones you want and focus on getting those. You simply won't get all the early wonders you desire.

[rah]

Zues is never really a priority for me. I just try to note where it's build so I know which city to prioritize when the civ's turn comes up.

I see no benefit in having it or being necessary for this strat. (denial is the only reason to build it.)

[Ming]

While denial is a valid reason to go for it... I'm a big fan of your first comment. Know where it is, and take it out as soon as you can the minute you go to war with that civ. Either raze the city or keep it... just take it out of play.

[Theben]

You might be able to drop the Parthenon as well. If you're running any sort of elite military what about the Paya and going for Pacifism which normally requires a mid game tech? You could get a 100% GP boost and in my experience it's a wonder that isn't a high AI priority, unlike the Parthenon. It also helps that gold is usually more common than marble, though being able to do both wonders would obviously be better.

I think a well utilized Great Scientist would be better for popping Philosophy, getting a rel and Pacifism civic, than building Paya. I'd consider it mainly if I wanted Free Rel early, but that's about it.

[Brael]

But what if you pick up CoL? There's a religion from that and the only thing Philosophy really leads to is Nationalism. There's also the fact that some leaders already start with mysticism which could factor into the decision.

The Paya is also typically easier to get than Philosophy as well, though this depends on difficulty level. It's only only about 10% more expensive than the Parthenon but considerably lower priority, and helps out with some prophet points in the event you take another religion.

[wodan11]

Yes, BW to chop the 'mids.

Gotcha.

I have been working the Warlord strat + SE.
You need both 'mids and wall.
The only one to have a reasonable shot at both is to chopchop even if you are IND this may be needed.
Also, because you are focusing on getting those two wonders, there is only the opportunity of creating one settler+escort.
The second city almost HAS to be your military city, so you settle on revealed copper, and build begin building troops.

Generally I would beeline BW, then Masonry. Once you have 3 cities, you can devote one to GW. Once you have 4 cities, you can devote one to Mids.

It's tempting to devote the highest production city to make units, but I would use it on the GW.

While the Mids might be nice, if you didn't get it, you could retool at that early stage of the game and go CE.

You will also more than likely end up being first to COL, this allows you to found a religion. Founding a religion will assist you in getting other civs to DOW on you, if you don't spread it. Founding a religion obviously has other bennies that don't need to be spelled out. The other added help from COL is a slight boost in espionage/commerce from the courthouses.

You are thinking exactly right. And, you're very correct that getting them to DOW is a good thing to be desired. That can be a tough concept to soak into the brain.

I am using Suleiman to try to figure out the best path to a good SE/Warlord/Espionage strategy.

got it.

Getting both the GW and 'mids is a tough one.

Scout and find Stone would be pretty important. Just as important as to scout and find Copper.

What do you suppose are key wonders and techs to optimize this strategy? My thoughts:

Techs (no particular order):
- Farming (+food)
- Fishing (+food)
- BW (chop)
- Masonry (GW and 'mids)
- Writing (library and research)
- Alphabet (tech trading/spies)
- COL (courthouses/religion)
After this it gets a little muddy for me...tips?

Well Suleiman already starts with Agriculture. I would skip Fishing totally. It's not worth the slow down. Get it *after* Masonry at the earliest. Maybe even after Writing.

You might consider getting Math instead of Alphabet. Pre-chop forests, then finish them as soon as you get Math. I'm not sure if the timing will work out but if it does, you should get a bonus 100 or so which will instantly finish the Mids. (You'll probably finish the GW before then, no matter what, and definitely don't delay finishing either wonder just to get a little extra out of your chops.)

If Universal Suffrage comes out before a clear win can be established would a corporation economy be viable? All of the GP from the SE and the tech lead should allow the player to create corporations at will.

As long as you don't want to do any further reserach, I suppose. That is, if you think you can buy the win.

As far as a victory condition, it is either spaceship, diplomatic, or an eventual domination win by using ultramodern warlord units.

Culture is not out of the question, in fact, it's very viable I think. Diplo I think wouldn't work with the Warlord strategy. My preferred victory types would be space, culture, or domination.

[Norselord]

If Universal Suffrage comes out before a clear win can be established would a corporation economy be viable? All of the GP from the SE and the tech lead should allow the player to create corporations at will.

As long as you don't want to do any further reserach, I suppose. That is, if you think you can buy the win.

If the strategy with Warlords is to stifle the growth of the enemy by forcing WW on them and to have them spend efforts on military rather than infrastructure/research, then through the use of corps i am trying to enforce and amplify this. The idea is that because they have been neglecting building infrastructure that could have helped them build wealth, you are no adding a drain on the wealth also. This could lead to economic collapse. The number of troops will be limited, buildings may be required to be torn down, etc. Eventually the opponent will be left poor with backwards technology no infrastructure and an obsolete military and diminished culture. When this happens it will be possible to run roughshod over that country in whatever way you choose. The key to corps is using spies to destroy the resources that make corps useful.

This may not have been clear, but the player will have two active types of victims in the proposed strat: the corporate victim and the economic victim. Although both will be the victim of the spies.

The goal in winning is to be better than the opponent. Instead of trying to maximize ones growth this strat seeks to minimize that of the opponent to the point of implosion.

Is it possible for an AI civ to implode? Can an economy go so sour for the AI that key buildings are forced to be sacrificed? Can unhappiness and unhealthiness be forced upon the AI to the point that cities shrink down to size 1?

[wodan11]

Ah, I see. Possibly. But I believe you have to have open borders to send in your Corp. Executives, right?

[Brael]

One problem I'm seeing with your idea. In order to spread the corporation you need to be at peace and have open borders. Peace runs counter to the idea of keeping them burdened with WW. How would you spread the corporation?

Bah, woodan beat me to it.

[Norselord]

This may not have been clear, but the player will have two active types of victims in the proposed strat: the corporate victim and the economic victim. Although both will be the victim of the spies.

I quote myself and notice that i made a mistake. The bolded should read:

The corporate victim and the military victim.

The corporate victim can be vassals or civs that you can't warlord with (if they are on other continents for example.) I would imagine that the civs that you Warlord with make up 2/3s of all Civs and you keep 1/3 hooked as your loyal economic junkies.

What happens if you establish corps and then go to war afterwards?

[Norselord]

Also, spies are needed to keep the AI out of the economic civic that nullifies foreign corps. Again, this strat does rely on running 20/60-80% science/espionage