A great big hello from a long time lurker

[stratti]

Thought I would drop a line here and say hello. Stratti is the name. Long time Civ player from the days of lightbulbs. Great site and community. I have lurked for a while generally on the train to and from work on my phone. Some of the threads have proved very .... entertaining.

Im essentially a builder that prefers space CV or diplo win. I always play CE but am extremely interested in SE. If anyone wishes or can be bothered to put a comprehensive post on SE I would appreciate it.

At anyrate hello to all

[brandonjm8]

basically the "SE" is just specialist economy which means for the most part you rely on specialists instead of cottages. now with a SE if your like me its more of a hybrid since you want your money making and science producing cities to have "some" cottages for added effectiveness since its quite easy to max out those specialists (merchants and scientists, unless you run CS, but if you ask me running serfdom allows to build many farmlands faster since on average your cities running SE tend to grow faster and you want those citizens only working developed tiles so you can run more specialists and have a higher production like i like to do). another requirement of running the SE is to have the pyramids early so you can run representation gov't for the added +3 beakers per specialist since you'll have fewer cottages this will offset the lack of science and if your good and get some big cities capable of supporting alot of specialists sometimes your science can be higher running a SE as compared to a CE. there are also some other wonders that help alot such as Angkor Wat which gives priests an extra hammer and using them adds gold too, most effectively used with two or more religions. the sistine chapel makes winning via CV (culture victory) very easy running the SE.

generally running a good SE will allow better production since you have more food to run mines and support priests/engineers while having sometimes ridiculous GP (great person) rates throughout from all those specialists (parthenon is very good to get with this approach) whereas running the CE you wont get as many GP.

both approaches have their pros and cons but in my opinion especially once you get biology SE can and should be (if you planned accordingly) far better than a CE. running a SE requires alot of grasslands and fresh water and if your scarce on those two (food resources too) you might want to consider running a CE.

i think i covered it all, if not just ask.

[Theben]

1st of all, welcome

2nd, there are some threads off the 1st page that go into detail about SEs. There's no 1 set way to do them, but there are some basics, which Brandon covered. I should add that wonders are not necessary for an SE but some, notably Pyramids, are quite helpful.

The 1st thing you should decide is whether or not the conditions of your game merit running an SE, and for how long. Generally speaking running an SE is good early in the game but tends to lose its effectiveness later on. If you are Philosophical, have poor land but many food specials, or have UBs that gear towards specialists (Egyptian Obelisks, for ex) a SE is better. Being Financial, having lots of grasslands/ flood plains, or even just starting with The Wheel (1 tech from Pottery & cottages at start) can entice you towards a CE. Even things such as marble/stone or the traits Industrious &/or Creative can benefit from a SE, as the strong point of such an economy is generating Great People.

[brandonjm8]

i must admit once i get biology none of my CE's have been at the level some of my SE's get too, just me.

but some basic advice would be to just do some "practice" games of both and find which you are better suited for, goodluck.

[wodan11]

basically the "SE" is just specialist economy which means for the most part you rely on specialists instead of cottages. now with a SE if your like me its more of a hybrid since you want your money making and science producing cities to have "some" cottages for added effectiveness since its quite easy to max out those specialists (merchants and scientists, unless you run CS, but if you ask me running serfdom allows to build many farmlands faster since on average your cities running SE tend to grow faster and you want those citizens only working developed tiles so you can run more specialists and have a higher production like i like to do).

I would say that the easiest SE runs Caste System and does not have cottages.

Brandon, your "higher production" comes from Angkor, and is not typical. Your priest SE is hard to run and is an esoteric type.

the sistine chapel makes winning via CV (culture victory) very easy running the SE.

Not really, no. It helps with some kinds of CV strategies. But even then it's not the key element to winning.

generally running a good SE will allow better production since you have more food to run mines and support priests/engineers

Sorry... totally false and a common misconception. It takes 2 food and a citizen to run a plains mine or an engineer specialist. This is true whether running a CE or SE.

while having sometimes ridiculous GP (great person) rates throughout from all those specialists (parthenon is very good to get with this approach) whereas running the CE you wont get as many GP.

True but misleading. The way GP work is an escalating scale (with each successive GP requiring more GPP than the last) which means a CE with a GP farm (a single city optimized to crank out GP) can almost keep up with a SE.

both approaches have their pros and cons but in my opinion especially once you get biology SE can and should be (if you planned accordingly) far better than a CE.

A beginning player usually experiences things the other way around. It takes a lot of specialized skill to make a SE better than a typical CE. Also, a skilled player can make a CE which is just as good as a skilled SE. Either way, it takes skill to optimize your strategy. But that doesn't mean different skills can't make the other strategy as good if not better.

running a SE requires alot of grasslands and fresh water and if your scarce on those two (food resources too) you might want to consider running a CE.

Good tip.

[brandonjm8]

I would say that the easiest SE runs Caste System and does not have cottages.

for the most part especially early game you want your workers to work tiles faster using serfdom to avoid having citizens working unimproved tiles, if your workers can keep up and with serfdom its pretty much a certainty then you will easily be able to max out your specialists in all cities since your keeping up with having adequate improved tiles as opposed to a select few, having "some" cottages in those select few will help offset not having CS and you can simply run other specialists like priests or engineers with rep gov't to further add to your beakers and add to production helping you build units/buildings faster. now if you want to run CS for the unlimited then your sacrificing the benefit of your workers keeping up with all your fast growing cities and thus you will end up having alot of citizens working unimproved tiles thus making your SE inefficient. CS has its uses, i dont deny that. but i think if you are small or have no religions or need to catch up really quickly than CS isnt that good, the only other added benefit is the +1 for workshops but in a SE you dont want to run alotta workshops instead you want farms and mines and some cottages in those select cities to help add to the commerce thus making the multipliers worth more. if you run CS and not serfdom doing an SE then you might end up using multiple workers on cities thus taking away from your other cities and now working unimproved tiles, would you rather build a farm on forest in 12-16 turns or 6-8? speed is the name of the game when going for a good SE. you want maximum specialists in maximum amount of cities maximum amount of time. having fast workers just makes that easier to do.

the sistine chapel makes winning via CV (culture victory) very easy running the SE.

Not really, no. It helps with some kinds of CV strategies. But even then it's not the key element to winning.

its not required but with a good running SE the sistine chapel does make it alot easier since you get +2 culture per specialist. if you have a city of size 14 running 7 specialists thats an added 14 culture points per turn and with cathedrals and free speech adding to those, they add up very quickly and can shave a good 100-200 turns in a marathon game for winning via CV if you choose to go that way.

Sorry... totally false and a common misconception. It takes 2 food and a citizen to run a plains mine or an engineer specialist. This is true whether running a CE or SE.

not false, with an SE approach you have alot more food to support alot more priests/engineers thus adding alot of hammers to your cities couple with their multipliers. think about it, you have 7 grassland farms thats 7 extra food thats 3 engineers/priests (w/ angkor wat just for example) and a grassland mine or plains windmill, thats 3 from the mine/windmill (before RR) and an extra 6 from your specialists, thats a total of 9 extra hammers plus forge then later factories/coal plants. now make that city bigger, now add more grasslands, now food resources, now biology, youd be surprised how productive your cities can get. now running an CE will not have the same effects, for one you have little to no farmland, your specialists will be minimal, you will have to have food resources or sacrifice cottages for farmland so you can work mines. i know this from experience, i have far more hammers running an SE compared to a CE, especially when you get biology for more priests/engineers and then levee's and then even more by far after factories/coal plants for their added multipliers. ive never had 20 cities running an CE with 100 or more hammers per turn, never. but i can do it almost every game running an SE. it may not be 20 cities every game but a good chunk of them if not the majority, i will have a much higher ratio when compared to a CE. the only thing CE has more than a SE is commerce, SE has more hammers, food, specialists, and GP. and with all those specialists especially after biology surpassing an CE is rather quite easy as far as gold/turn and/or beakers/turn.

True but misleading. The way GP work is an escalating scale (with each successive GP requiring more GPP than the last) which means a CE with a GP farm (a single city optimized to crank out GP) can almost keep up with a SE.

i average at least AT LEAST 3x more GP with a SE then an CE. the great thing with SE's is that most if not all of you cities are producing them. and if you are smart and put NE in one of you biggest cities that city alone can and more often than not build more GP than CE's while also having your other cities build them too but obviously not as numerous. having the parthenon does make this easier but i often get at least 30 GP during my games, ive had over 50 before, had like 5 priests in 3 cities (religous cities and WS and corps). ive had 5 or more cities with academies, i get so many engineers i can hurry almost every wonder i build early-mid game and after. i also get 3 or more GA's just from GP not including the taj mahal.

[wodan11]

for the most part especially early game you want your workers to work tiles faster using serfdom to avoid having citizens working unimproved tiles

Early game you don't have Serfdom. It requires Feudalism.

if your workers can keep up and with serfdom its pretty much a certainty then you will easily be able to max out your specialists in all cities since your keeping up with having adequate improved tiles as opposed to a select few

By the time you have Feudalism, it should't be a problem at all to have enough improved tiles and workers to keep up with city growth.

Frankly, I think you are enamored of Serfdom because you play on friggin' huge maps and without Serfdom the minutae would bog down even you.

having "some" cottages in those select few will help offset not having CS

At a significant cost, but yes. Since there are costs, it's not fair for you to point at them and unilaterally say they are a benefit.

Besides, you can run cottages with Caste System too. So that's a moot point.

and you can simply run other specialists like priests or engineers with rep gov't to further add to your beakers and add to production helping you build units/buildings faster

Sure. But you can do that with Caste System too. So that's a moot point.

now if you want to run CS for the unlimited then your sacrificing the benefit of your workers keeping up with all your fast growing cities

Sure. But that doesn't mean they won't be able to keep up. You can always build more workers. Heck, quite often you can steal workers from an enemy in an early war and don't even have to build them.

and thus you will end up having alot of citizens working unimproved tiles

Only if you don't have the foresight to have enough workers on hand.

thus making your SE inefficient

I agree, if you have poor planning, whether through workers or not, your economy will be inefficient. That has nothing to do with Serfdom.

CS has its uses, i dont deny that. but i think if you are small or have no religions or need to catch up really quickly than CS isnt that good

What's your basis for these conclusions?

the only other added benefit is the +1 for workshops but in a SE you dont want to run alotta workshops instead you want farms and mines and some cottages in those select cities to help add to the commerce thus making the multipliers worth more

Wow. What's your basis for those conclusions?

if you run CS and not serfdom doing an SE then you might end up using multiple workers on cities thus taking away from your other cities and now working unimproved tiles, would you rather build a farm on forest in 12-16 turns or 6-8

Sure. A six-demon bag would be nice, too!

Honestly, Brandon. CIV is about choices. There are pros/cons with almost all choices. Most "pro" players feel that Serfdom is suboptimal in almost all cases. I actually think it is optimal in some cases. The fact that you think it is optimal in almost all cases is interesting.

? speed is the name of the game when going for a good SE. you want maximum specialists in maximum amount of cities maximum amount of time. having fast workers just makes that easier to do.

Speed is the name of the game when going for anything. Serfdom is one way to help your improvements keep up with city growth. There are other ways.

its not required but with a good running SE the sistine chapel does make it alot easier since you get +2 culture per specialist

It helps, yes. A "lot"? Depends on how many other sources of culture you have, I suppose. If I had 300 culture income, then an extra 15 or so is only 5% more.

Also, it depends on if you're running a SE in the first place.

not false, with an SE approach you have alot more food to support alot more priests/engineers thus adding alot of hammers to your cities couple with their multipliers.

Okay, and in a CE you can build a farm and support exactly the same thing.

now running an CE will not have the same effects, for one you have little to no farmland, your specialists will be minimal, you will have to have food resources or sacrifice cottages for farmland so you can work mines

Why don't we have farmland? Why can't a CE run a specialist? Why doesn't a CE have any food resources? Why is it bad to sacrifice a cottage for farmland? (Particularly the latter strikes me as twofaced coming from you, since you run cottages in your SE.)

i know this from experience, i have far more hammers running an SE compared to a CE, especially when you get biology for more priests/engineers

That's because you run Angkor. Meanwhile, a CE has far more commerce than a SE. There's no point there. It's pros/cons.

and then levee's and then even more by far after factories/coal plants for their added multipliers

This is true of either case, so it's a moot point.

ive never had 20 cities running an CE with 100 or more hammers per turn, never

Well, have you tried? How many games did you attempt to perfect your CE? Perhaps you weren't optimizing your strategy. How many games of CIV have you played, how many were SE, and how many were CE?

the only thing CE has more than a SE is commerce, SE has more hammers, food, specialists, and GP.

Food and specialists are a means, not an end, so leave that off the list.

For the others, hammers is only because you run Angkor. GP is a very minor benefit because a CE GP farm can almost keep up with a SE.

and with all those specialists especially after biology surpassing an CE is rather quite easy as far as gold/turn and/or beakers/turn.

What's your basis for this conclusion?

Honestly, the reason I ask you to back up your claims is because you seem to just blithely toss them out there. I may or may not even agree with you sometimes.

I mean, couldn't we just as easily pull a claim out of our butt such as, "and with all those Towns, especially after Free Speech, surpassing a SE is rather quite easy as far as gold/turn and/or beakers/turn."

i average at least AT LEAST 3x more GP with a SE then an CE.

Then you have no clue how to do a GP farm well. I'd suggest you put some thought and research into how to do a GP farm and give it a try.

the great thing with SE's is that most if not all of you cities are producing them

That can help in the early game especially with a "parallel SE". After that, the GP farm quickly catches up.

and if you are smart and put NE in one of you biggest cities that city alone can and more often than not build more GP than CE's while also having your other cities build them too but obviously not as numerous

If your NE city is outstripping your other cities, then the SE is changing from parallel to serial and very quickly your other cities will no longer be producing any GP. You might get a couple, but that's it.

[brandonjm8]

Early game you don't have Serfdom. It requires Feudalism.

maybe i get feudalism early .

By the time you have Feudalism, it should't be a problem at all to have enough improved tiles and workers to keep up with city growth.

play my maps, theres an awful lot of forest/jungle, and i get feudalism early. and yes i keep up quite well since i use serfdom. if you dont want to use serfdom than dont but i do and will.

Frankly, I think you are enamored of Serfdom because you play on friggin' huge maps and without Serfdom the minutae would bog down even you.

i guess you dont like people specializing on how they do things, it seems unless you agree with them . but since this is just an opinion i wont comment further.

At a significant cost, but yes. Since there are costs, it's not fair for you to point at them and unilaterally say they are a benefit. Besides, you can run cottages with Caste System too. So that's a moot point.

i can since it works for me and they are only my opinions. i think you take me too seriously .

they are only moot to you , doesnt really matter to me.

Sure. But you can do that with Caste System too. So that's a moot point.

nope not moot, with SE's you have more farmland for more priests/engineers so yes SE's are more productive at least for me. CE's focus on COMMERCE hence their name . and because of that little farmland leads to fewer priests/engineers thus lower production.

Sure. But that doesn't mean they won't be able to keep up. You can always build more workers. Heck, quite often you can steal workers from an enemy in an early war and don't even have to build them.

yes it does, fewer farms for fewer food surpluses. building more than 1 worker per city is wasteful (120 hammers each on marathon) and you can go ahead and start early wars if you want to to just get some workers, i follow a different path. sometimes i steal workers but i dont rely on it .

Only if you don't have the foresight to have enough workers on hand.

having to many workers is wasteful, having serfdom in essence doubles your workers output thus you will never need more than 1 per city .

I agree, if you have poor planning, whether through workers or not, your economy will be inefficient. That has nothing to do with Serfdom.

yes it does, if your citizens are working unimproved tiles then your system is inefficient . serfdom allows you to keep that at a bare minimum if you know what your doing .

Honestly, Brandon. CIV is about choices. There are pros/cons with almost all choices. Most "pro" players feel that Serfdom is suboptimal in almost all cases. I actually think it is optimal in some cases. The fact that you think it is optimal in almost all cases is interesting.

then just accept that i have found my way of doing things thus far and you have yours. everything i do is for a reason, but im not going to write an essay all about it for you.

Okay, and in a CE you can build a farm and support exactly the same thing.

then it wouldnt be the same thing , CE's have far more cottages and SE's have far more farmland unless your doing your own version of a hybrid. my hybrid is simple, build some cottages in money/science producing cities whilst still maxing out specialists to help increase the multipliers and lower cottages if any in low commerce cities.

Why don't we have farmland? Why can't a CE run a specialist? Why doesn't a CE have any food resources? Why is it bad to sacrifice a cottage for farmland? (Particularly the latter strikes me as twofaced coming from you, since you run cottages in your SE.)

already explained my cottages above.

CE's are COTTAGE ECONOMIES , farmland is at a minimum thus specialists are at a minimum at least compared to my SE's , unless again your doing some sort of hybrid.

That's because you run Angkor. Meanwhile, a CE has far more commerce than a SE. There's no point there. It's pros/cons.

i have higher production even w/o AW .

This is true of either case, so it's a moot point.

nope not moot since in my SE's my base hammer rate is much higher thus multipliers have a higher effect thus more hammers

Well, have you tried? How many games did you attempt to perfect your CE? Perhaps you weren't optimizing your strategy. How many games of CIV have you played, how many were SE, and how many were CE?

enough. enough. and yes i usually do but no ones perfect. enough. enough. and enough.

For the others, hammers is only because you run Angkor. GP is a very minor benefit because a CE GP farm can almost keep up with a SE.

nope, i have higher numbers anyways. GP are not minor benefits either. try playing a game where you get 50 GP and tell me how minimal they were

Honestly, the reason I ask you to back up your claims is because you seem to just blithely toss them out there. I may or may not even agree with you sometimes.

im not gonna write an essay for this so just accept that its my opinion, everything i say is take it as that.

Then you have no clue how to do a GP farm well. I'd suggest you put some thought and research into how to do a GP farm and give it a try.

nope, i like my hybrid style even you if dont or simply dont understand it all.

That can help in the early game especially with a "parallel SE". After that, the GP farm quickly catches up.

well your NE city is your GP farm, i usually get around 100 points per turn, and no my other cities get quite high too and add 1/3 of my GP, they really are that high too w/o NE , i get crazy amounts of GP .

If your NE city is outstripping your other cities, then the SE is changing from parallel to serial and very quickly your other cities will no longer be producing any GP. You might get a couple, but that's it.

nope, not me . i get plenty.

[wodan11]

maybe i get feudalism early .

Explain, please.

play my maps, theres an awful lot of forest/jungle

I will, as soon as I can.

and i get feudalism early

I don't see how it's possible unless your definition of "early" is different from my definition. But, I'll read your explanation how with interest.

and yes i keep up quite well since i use serfdom. if you dont want to use serfdom than dont but i do and will.

i guess you dont like people specializing on how they do things, it seems unless you agree with them . but since this is just an opinion i wont comment further.

"specializing"? That makes no sense. Do you mean "describing"?

I very much enjoy people describing how they do things, because it helps me learn new ways to play.

they are only moot to you , doesnt really matter to me.

"Moot" is an objective concept, not a subjective one.

nope not moot, with SE's you have more farmland for more priests/engineers so yes SE's are more productive at least for me.

That makes no sense. Caste System is a SE.

CE's focus on COMMERCE hence their name . and because of that little farmland leads to fewer priests/engineers thus lower production.

"CE" stands for cottage economy not commerce economy. And there is nothing prohibiting a CE from having a farm or two. In fact, it's quite often a good idea for three main reasons: to enable whipping when the city is first starting out, to grow to max size quickly even if whipping is not used (and work the max cottages thereby), and to enable the city to work a mine/specialist or two (because otherwise you have little hammers before Universal Suffrage).

You're trying to argue both sides of the fence. You say a SE can have cottages, but a CE can't have farms.

yes it does, fewer farms for fewer food surpluses. building more than 1 worker per city is wasteful (120 hammers each on marathon)

An arbitrary number means nothing. In one game, with tons of jungle, you may need more than 1 worker per city, no matter the cost, and no matter whether you're running Serfdom.

And, as I said, you can capture workers for free, so the build cost means nothing if you're able to capture additional workers.

and you can go ahead and start early wars if you want to to just get some workers, i follow a different path. sometimes i steal workers but i dont rely on it .

Nobody said anything about "rely". For example, I daresay that even when you steal workers you still adopt Serfdom. Right?

having to many workers is wasteful, having serfdom in essence doubles your workers output thus you will never need more than 1 per city .

And there are COSTS to running Serfdom.

Pointing out a cost to alternatives does not automatically make Serfdom better.

yes it does, if your citizens are working unimproved tiles then your system is inefficient . serfdom allows you to keep that at a bare minimum if you know what your doing .

And there are other ways to keep that to a bare minimum if you know what you're doing.

then just accept that i have found my way of doing things thus far and you have yours.

Actually, no I don't. I don't have a "way of doing things." I play different game strategies most every game.

everything i do is for a reason, but im not going to write an essay all about it for you.

Fair enough, but don't be surprised if people discount your unsupported claims. You have gotten quite bothered so far, in fact calling people "idiot" when they do that.

i have higher production even w/o AW .

Yes, of course. You don't run Slavery, specialists, or mines in your CE, so of course your CEs have some deficiencies particularly in regard to production . In fact, I can easily see why you are enamored of your Priest/SE and think CE as well as other types of SE are all suboptimal.

nope not moot since in my SE's my base hammer rate is much higher thus multipliers have a higher effect thus more hammers

I don't think you know what Levee does because you have it exactly opposite. Levee does not give a multiplier.

enough. enough. and yes i usually do but no ones perfect. enough. enough. and enough.

Sure, we can drop it, but seriously how many CE games have you played on CIV 4 and how many games of SE have you played on CIV 4? That's important data.

nope, i have higher numbers anyways.

Explain, please.

GP are not minor benefits either. try playing a game where you get 50 GP and tell me how minimal they were

I didn't say they weren't. Why get so defensive?

im not gonna write an essay for this so just accept that its my opinion, everything i say is take it as that.

As I said, you're entitled to that approach but then you ALSO shouldn't get offended (which you have, quite harshly in fact) when people question your bald statements which (to them) clearly don't match their experience or knowledge of the game, or are unsupported.

nope, i like my hybrid style even you if dont or simply dont understand it all.

Are you serious? Your response to someone saying "this other approach can do the same thing, you should try it" is to refuse and accuse them of not understanding?

well your NE city is your GP farm, i usually get around 100 points per turn, and no my other cities get quite high too and add 1/3 of my GP, they really are that high too w/o NE , i get crazy amounts of GP .

What does "add 1/3 of my GP" mean?

[brandonjm8]

Explain, please.

since i usually get alot of early big cities with good science output, getting to feudalism is rather quite easy. i make it a point to get it for vassalage and longbowmen as well so i end up getting early. if you are looking for a "how to" explaination, sorry but im no author nor have any desire to be IF thats what you are looking for.

"specializing"? That makes no sense. Do you mean "describing"?

we all specialize on the things we do, well for most of us anyways. im not a trend setter nor follower, i walk a different path, i take the road less traveled. i just simply specialize on what I do and therefore am very good at it.

That makes no sense. Caste System is a SE.

not to me, to me SE is: rep gov't, and using serfdom gurantees at least for me that none of my citizens are working unimproved tiles so as to keep my system in peak efficiency. CS can be both but just for me, i find little value in it unless im small or my science sucks.

You're trying to argue both sides of the fence. You say a SE can have cottages, but a CE can't have farms.

i do a hybrid not your typical SE, i can call mine an SE since it is mine to call. it is a proven fact at least to me that SE's have far more farmland which is normal and to be expected, and CE's have far more cottages which is to be expected. you can build either any way you want to, i just build "some" cottages in select cities to add to the multiplier effect.

And, as I said, you can capture workers for free, so the build cost means nothing if you're able to capture additional workers.

they arent free, in order to get them you have to take diplo hits and start early wars. now if you want to start a war and taking some workers is just a plus then more power to you, but if you are starting the war to get those workers then in fact you are relying on that , i wont start wars just to get workers. if im DoW on then sure i'll take some free workers if i can, or when i decide to start conquering then i will too, i just wont rely on it to get workers.

Fair enough, but don't be surprised if people discount your unsupported claims. You have gotten quite bothered so far, in fact calling people "idiot" when they do that.

that "idiot" response is for one person only and you know who that is and quite simply he is, hes reverted to now accusing me of fraud, only an idiot would stoop so low.

as ive already said, people will perceive what they hear/see however they want to. i have no desire to want to make people agree with me, if you dont agree with me thats fine. but im not here to please, i say what i want to say and thats that.

I don't think you know what Levee does because you have it exactly opposite. Levee does not give a multiplier.

did i say levee's are in fact multipliers? nope. levee's add to the base rate which then the multipliers take effect but since leeve's add to the base they increase the effect of multipliers too .

Sure, we can drop it, but seriously how many CE games have you played on CIV 4 and how many games of SE have you played on CIV 4? That's important data.

i havent kept a tally so i cannot give an exact number. lets just say "enough" for each.

nope, i have higher numbers anyways.

Explain, please.

it means what i said, i have higher production numbers. AW just makes that more inflated.

I didn't say they weren't. Why get so defensive?

Then you have no clue how to do a GP farm well. I'd suggest you put some thought and research into how to do a GP farm and give it a try. <---you said this, you assumed i dont know how to get alot of GP which means having a GP farm, so i was simply proving a point . as i said get a game where you get 50 GP, i have, it helped alot.

As I said, you're entitled to that approach but then you ALSO shouldn't get offended (which you have, quite harshly in fact) when people question your bald statements which (to them) clearly don't match their experience or knowledge of the game, or are unsupported.

you have your opinions but when you start to assume the info you require to back your own statements then expect harsh comments if you are wrong .

What does "add 1/3 of my GP" mean?

well add means +, 1/3 means 33%, GP means great people. my other cities besides my GP farm accounts for a 1/3(33%) of the total of GP for me.

[wodan11]

since i usually get alot of early big cities with good science output, getting to feudalism is rather quite easy. i make it a point to get it for vassalage and longbowmen as well so i end up getting early. if you are looking for a "how to" explaination, sorry but im no author nor have any desire to be IF thats what you are looking for.

I was wondering if there was some trick you use. You DID ask me not to assume things.

So, basically, you consider it "early" since you REX easily because of no barbs on 2x map with underpopulated AIs. I guess that makes sense.

not to me, to me SE is: rep gov't, and using serfdom gurantees at least for me that none of my citizens are working unimproved tiles so as to keep my system in peak efficiency. CS can be both but just for me, i find little value in it unless im small or my science sucks.

That's fine but your opinion doesn't make Caste System not a SE. You made a general claim about SEs that was really about your priest/SE. So your comment was clearly nonsensical.

i do a hybrid not your typical SE, i can call mine an SE since it is mine to call. it is a proven fact at least to me that SE's have far more farmland which is normal and to be expected, and CE's have far more cottages which is to be expected. you can build either any way you want to, i just build "some" cottages in select cities to add to the multiplier effect.

Again, fine, but you shouldn't object to someone who says "CE" and allows a farm or two. After all, it's "theirs to call".

they arent free, in order to get them you have to take diplo hits and start early wars.

If I wanted to start a war anyway then the diplo hit is not an added cost. There is HUGE value to an early war, even if you don't intend to conquer. I can park a single unit on a forest hill next to their capitol and that will choke their growth because they can't send workers out to improve tiles.

Even if I didn't want to start an early war, a -1 vs a single AI (who I will be fighting later anyway) is well worth the 120 food/hammers production cost which you claim. Say I steal 4 workers, that's 480 saved.

now if you want to start a war and taking some workers is just a plus then more power to you, but if you are starting the war to get those workers then in fact you are relying on that

Not at all. There's a world of difference between positioning yourself to take advantage of a possible opportunity, and having a fallback plan if it doesn't happen, vs doing something no matter what.

as ive already said, people will perceive what they hear/see however they want to. i have no desire to want to make people agree with me, if you dont agree with me thats fine. but im not here to please, i say what i want to say and thats that.

It's true that people sometimes have preconceptions that bias their perceptions. However, 100% of the time people read what you say, not what you mean.

did i say levee's are in fact multipliers? nope. levee's add to the base rate which then the multipliers take effect but since leeve's add to the base they increase the effect of multipliers too .

And they do this on CE too. So your claim this is a benefit of your priest/SE is moot.

i havent kept a tally so i cannot give an exact number. lets just say "enough" for each.

Approximate, please.

it means what i said, i have higher production numbers. AW just makes that more inflated.

So why does that make you have more GPP?

If we're talking about production (hammers), let's talk about that. You claimed you had higher GPP, which is what this quote was in response to.

Then you have no clue how to do a GP farm well. I'd suggest you put some thought and research into how to do a GP farm and give it a try. <---you said this, you assumed i dont know how to get alot of GP which means having a GP farm,

I disagree that "get alot of GP" is equivalent to "having a GP farm". Mainly because you claim that you are able to generate GP in many cities which increases your total number of GP.

as i said get a game where you get 50 GP, i have, it helped alot.

Don't assume I haven't done this.

you have your opinions but when you start to assume the info you require to back your own statements then expect harsh comments if you are wrong .

And when people read what you say and respond to it without assuming anything, and you respond with harsh comments, you are inciting a flame war.

You DID say that your words don't always come out right and you don't always say what you mean to say.

[Norselord]

I didn't bother reading the eternal back-and-forth between Wodan and Brandon, those posts are too long. Neither will ever cede a single inch to the other and will just end in a series of flames.

Here is my take on the SE:
1) Need Bronzeworking, Farming and Masonry early.
2) Chop the Pyramids to get Representation (+ research for each specialist)
3) Beeline Writing/Alphabet/Code of Laws
4) Designate 1,2, or 3 cities as SE cities, make sure they have at least two special food tiles or are on floodplains.
5) Build library in SE cities, and assign 2 scientists as early as possible and have the cities run research (for production).
6) With your first scientist create an academy in one of your SE cities.
7) You will notice that once you have a few scientist specialists, you can drop your science slider and it doesn't affect the research rate very much.
8) Because your science slider can be set to 10-20% and you can still get a tech every 10 turns or fewer, you can do one or more of the following:
a) increase culture slider (need drama, right? Which will also allow artist specialists)
b) increase espionage slider (the 007 approach, combine this with smooth diplomatic skills to be the global puppetmaster for example, by forcing religion diplo changes...or just be a thief, steal techs, poison wells, etc.)
c) run a large surplus in cash, use that to maintain a large army, or a small modernized army, or use the cash to buy diplomatic favors/techs.
9) Keep adding science multiplier buildings to your SE cities.
10) use the scientists for settling, lightbulbing, or corps. Your call.

SE works well with:
- philosophical trait
- warmongering
- Cultural vistories
- parthenon

The enemy of the SE is the health/happiness cap. Wonders that assist with the cap should be pursued. Once universal suffrage has been discovered, the effectiveness of the SE declines due to the happiness hit.

I am by no means an expert at the SE game, it has worked fantastically for me and it has also failed miserably.

For extra fun, try a SE with the latest strategy crazes; the Warlord Leader and the Warlord Instructor.

[wodan11]

I didn't bother reading the eternal back-and-forth between Wodan and Brandon, those posts are too long. Neither will ever cede a single inch to the other and will just end in a series of flames.

Lol. Actually he and I haven't been flaming, not like he and Ming.

Here is my take on the SE:
1) Need Bronzeworking, Farming and Masonry early.

Why BW? Not that BW isn't a good idea. I just wonder why you call it out as a requirement for SE. To chop the 'mids?

The enemy of the SE is the health/happiness cap.

Health, yes. Happiness, only for some types of SE. "Slider" SEs (use the culture slider indiscriminately) have effectively infinite happiness.

Wonders that assist with the cap should be pursued. Once universal suffrage has been discovered, the effectiveness of the SE declines due to the happiness hit.

See above, and that's one reason to use slider SE rather than other types of SE.

For extra fun, try a SE with the latest strategy crazes; the Warlord Leader and the Warlord Instructor.

Abso-farkin-lutely!

[brandonjm8]

I was wondering if there was some trick you use. You DID ask me not to assume things. So, basically, you consider it "early" since you REX easily because of no barbs on 2x map with underpopulated AIs. I guess that makes sense.

funny thing is im usually beat to it from at least one or two AI's, i have used CS but perfer serfdom to keep up with improved tiles. also, having longbow's early can be a great help if you are sharing your continent with some lunatics. and then you can switch to vassalage for some free units and +2 exp for them as well.

That's fine but your opinion doesn't make Caste System not a SE. You made a general claim about SEs that was really about your priest/SE. So your comment was clearly nonsensical.

well you said this prior: "That makes no sense. Caste System is a SE." so i was just stating my opinion that to me it isnt but it CAN be both.

Again, fine, but you shouldn't object to someone who says "CE" and allows a farm or two. After all, it's "theirs to call".

i dont tell people what they are playing or how to do it. i give advice from my own exp's which i admit i like getting AW for obvious reasons but im not saying my ways are the ways, they are just my ways my interpretations thats all.

If I wanted to start a war anyway then the diplo hit is not an added cost. There is HUGE value to an early war, even if you don't intend to conquer. I can park a single unit on a forest hill next to their capitol and that will choke their growth because they can't send workers out to improve tiles. Even if I didn't want to start an early war, a -1 vs a single AI (who I will be fighting later anyway) is well worth the 120 food/hammers production cost which you claim. Say I steal 4 workers, that's 480 saved.

starting early wars where your intent is not to conquer CAN lead to the slowing of your own development having to build units instead of buildings and cities with some units.

if its easy to slow them down like that then thats just a great opportunity. but would you sacrifice you own growth/development to steal workers or attempt to slow them down or would you sometimes wait for a more better opportune time to do so like with better and more units such as cats?

It's true that people sometimes have preconceptions that bias their perceptions. However, 100% of the time people read what you say, not what you mean.

i have no problems clarifying anything ive said for that reason. i try but im not perfect, i think too much/fast at times and my english skills arent the best , i try.

And they do this on CE too. So your claim this is a benefit of your priest/SE is moot.

nope not moot, since my SE's have far more engineers/priests than my CE's my base rate is much higher from those two which adds to the base rate then add levee's then the multipliers. for example take a size 15 city with 6 specialists running my SE, that city has 1 engineer and 5 priests, thats 7 hammers or 12 w/ AW. now compare that to the same city running CE which will have fewer farmland thus wont have 6 specialists such as my SE city, get my point, my SE cities have higher base rate hammers since they have more hammer producing specialists which then adds to the multipliers thus an overall inflated increase of hammers since base rate is higher, simple math. and this is just for me. others my build differently or something like that.

Approximate, please.

ive had civ4 since late january if i remember right, if ive played 100 games then id say 40 of em have been CE's and the rest either hybrids or plain SE's, thats the best i can do.

So why does that make you have more GPP? If we're talking about production (hammers), let's talk about that. You claimed you had higher GPP, which is what this quote was in response to.

simply put i have many cities producing alot of specialists each thus each is having a significant effect to my GPP rate.

I disagree that "get alot of GP" is equivalent to "having a GP farm". Mainly because you claim that you are able to generate GP in many cities which increases your total number of GP.

my NE city is my GP farm which is why i build it in that city. my other cities just have that many specialists too and they contribute alot of GP for me too. (parthenon will inflate this even more for me but is not required)

You DID say that your words don't always come out right and you don't always say what you mean to say.

yes i did, as long as questions/comments are in a respectful manner then my replies will be too. when questions/comments towards me have a condescending or smart-alec nature to them i just respond with the same. i am a civilized person i just dont take crap from anyone anymore, i cant ignore everything especially when someone flat out accuses me of something like fraud, i think you can appreciate how mad and/or annoyed if someone accused you of something that was utterly false and that accuser wouldnt listen to reason and/or clarification and just persisted with their false claims.

[brandonjm8]

you really only run into health problems with a poor resource continent, and plus your surpluses of food could be so high as to not need worry about it. then most of the time if you beeline to astronomy fast you can just trade and your limits go way up which would be ideal.