Making friends with aggressive civs.

[slnz]

I've tried various tactics. The thing is, playing Emperor level, I run out of money very quickly unless I found religions. Believe me, I've tried to ignore them but nothing works nearly as reliably as the religions. To the point that even when I don't start with Mysticism I still try to be the first to get Judaism at least. Judaism + Oracle (and Writing) means Theology and a Great Prophet in a number of turns (from the GP points of the Oracle). The Great Prophet builds Temple of Solomon or Church of Nativity and from there on I'm on easy street, money-wise. Any other thing I've tried I find myself in 500 AD forced to run 60% money - 40% research or worse and producing 40 - 60 bulbs per turn, which is far from enough to stay in the race.

I'm the exact opposite: I've almost never got a religious economy working as well as a more straightforward one, where I ignore all the "artsy" techs and focus mostly economy boosting techs such as Currency and CS. This usually yields 120-200 beakers on average 1AD. (Immortal/Emperor)

I guess the "merchant"-approach gives more of a "physical" presence in form of territory and commerce (which usually also gives versatility to deal with annoying neighbors of different kinds), and the "priest"-approach more of a "mental" presence, if you have founded the religions your neighbors use and so on.

Besides, I do not adopt them for the happy bonus, but for the culture ! As a concrete example : capital builds oracle, I choose Theology and Christianism is founded in my second or third city - I adopt Christianism as state religion which gives this latest, smalles city of mine a boost of +5 culture per turn and relieves it from the need to build a monument.

I find that any more than +1 cpt early game is more a luxury than a necessity; and as stated with no state religion any religion gives this. Very often a foreign religion spreads early enough to enable skipping monuments.
As you said, it's a preferential trade-off; I can hardly imagine early game without using religion as a diplomatic way to stave off early war

As I said, I do not share your opinion. I realized my game were much more enjoyable the more religions I managed to found. My current tactic involves founding 3 religions including Islam, spreading my state religion to my neighbors' capitals in the hope they'll adopt it and then build Apostolic Palace (this is why being first to Cristianism is such a prize) for me, then building Spiral Minaret myself. Believe me, when each and every one of your, say, Jewish temples and your Jewish monasteries bring +2 and +2 per turn in addition to their standard benefits, you can really sit back and enjoy a pleasant game.

The prodboost given by AP religion is indeed huge, but I find it quite rare to not be able to get my hands on the AP religion and spread it for the production bonuses after it's been built. Though I guess the fact that I favor Pangaea maps plays into this.

The thing that makes this game so great is that with radically different approaches similarly good results can be achieved for me, I shudder even at the thought of actually _researching_ divine right

[wodan11]

Let me see if I have this straight...
Q: I can't win in this situation!
A: Here's one way to do it.
Q: But look at all the advantages of my current strategy!

Is that about right?

Seriously, all strats have pros/cons. If you can't be adaptable to the vagaries of terrain, neighbors, etc. then console yourself to occasionally losing as a result.

Personally, I love changing strategies. I do my best to make each and every game different. If I played the same strat all the time: how boring is that. I would have given up on this game 2 years ago.

[rah]

Yeah, early on I'm finding myself not converting to a religion after founding one or two. I didn't realize that you still got the +5 culture bonus in founder cities even if you have no state religion. This is useful if you found more than one religion. And you can wait a touch to find out which religion is going to be the key religion on the land mass you're playin. With early whipping, it takes awhile before that +1 happy is really required.

[sorinache]

Yeah, early on I'm finding myself not converting to a religion after founding one or two. I didn't realize that you still got the +5 culture bonus in founder cities even if you have no state religion. This is useful if you found more than one religion. With early whipping, it takes awhile before that +1 happy is really required.[/QUOTE]

You do ? I don't think so, I'm almost sure you don't. At most, you get a +1, not a +5. I do not whip, don't like the idea. On the contrary, I'm trying to maximize my pop, thus I take advantage of the +1 happy as fast as I can.

And you can wait a touch to find out which religion is going to be the key religion on the land mass you're playin.

Hmmm, I might need this attitude when I'll switch to playing Immortal. On Emperor level I still (usually) have the luxury of not caring or contending to be the top dog religion.

[sorinache]

Let me see if I have this straight...
Q: I can't win in this situation!
A: Here's one way to do it.
Q: But look at all the advantages of my current strategy!

Is that about right?

Err, no ... He indicated a way to not cross Brennus. I said "ok, that will work for the purpose of keeping Brennus happy, but I do not know how to do all the other things needed for winning if I play this way"

Seriously, all strats have pros/cons. If you can't be adaptable to the vagaries of terrain, neighbors, etc. then console yourself to occasionally losing as a result.

Personally, I love changing strategies. I do my best to make each and every game different. If I played the same strat all the time: how boring is that. I would have given up on this game 2 years ago.

I generally agree, but I gradually evolve my strategies rather than fundamentally changing them from one game to the next. For the moment, I'm quite far away from the strategy he's hinting at. So far away that I do not understand it and wouldn't be able to actually implement it to win

[sorinache]

I'm the exact opposite: I've almost never got a religious economy working as well as a more straightforward one, where I ignore all the "artsy" techs and focus mostly economy boosting techs such as Currency and CS. This usually yields 120-200 beakers on average 1AD. (Immortal/Emperor)

I do rank Currency and Civil Service very high in my priority list and try to get them as fast as I can. I have yet to try shooting straight for them and ignoring the religions. I do generally ignore what I call "artsy" techs (alphabet, aesthetics, literature, drama, music) but I do not count religions as "artsy"[/QUOTE]

I guess the "merchant"-approach gives more of a "physical" presence in form of territory and commerce (which usually also gives versatility to deal with annoying neighbors of different kinds), and the "priest"-approach more of a "mental" presence, if you have founded the religions your neighbors use and so on.

I find that any more than +1 cpt early game is more a luxury than a necessity; and as stated with no state religion any religion gives this. Very often a foreign religion spreads early enough to enable skipping monuments.

Well, when it does ... but then you have to cross your fingers and hope for the best ... Then when it doesn't, it's suddenly much harder, because you can't benefit from the +10% science of the monasteries, from the happy bonus from temples nor from the culture bonus that I so much like and use to push the borders and expand my empire peacefully
[/QUOTE]

As you said, it's a preferential trade-off; I can hardly imagine early game without using religion as a diplomatic way to stave off early war

The prodboost given by AP religion is indeed huge, but I find it quite rare to not be able to get my hands on the AP religion and spread it for the production bonuses after it's been built. Though I guess the fact that I favor Pangaea maps plays into this.

I suppose that is key to your strategy. I played maps that turned out as pangaeas but never knowingly chose this map type. I once had a "balanced" map put me alone on a huge island with noone nearby until they discovered Optics ... Even with the religions I founded I struggled, I can't imagine how I would have fared in isolation without religions and anybody to spread anything to me nor exchange any tech with ...

Isn't it much better to be the first to Theology and then decide whether to build the AP or, if applicable, to outsource it to a nice neighbor ?

The thing that makes this game so great is that with radically different approaches similarly good results can be achieved for me, I shudder even at the thought of actually _researching_ divine right

I can't imagine myself enjoying whipping. But I have no problem with Divine Right. It's a very useful exchange token - I manage to sell it to almost everyone else (they all seem to value Versailles a lot) for a good price.

[slnz]

Well, when it does ... but then you have to cross your fingers and hope for the best ... Then when it doesn't, it's suddenly much harder, because you can't benefit from the +10% science of the monasteries, from the happy bonus from temples nor from the culture bonus that I so much like and use to push the borders and expand my empire peacefully

The religion doesn't give you the religion buildings automatically... I consider building those a huge waste of time until after the initial expansion, and by then you are guaranteed to have enough religions to build all the temples and monasteries you want (which is not all of them in every city, obviously, the monastery boost for example is negligible except in the best science cities). IMO the only early benefit that applies to founding with Meditation/Poly(/Mono) is the guaranteed monument-skippage.

I suppose that is key to your strategy. I played maps that turned out as pangaeas but never knowingly chose this map type. I once had a "balanced" map put me alone on a huge island with noone nearby until they discovered Optics ... Even with the religions I founded I struggled, I can't imagine how I would have fared in isolation without religions and anybody to spread anything to me nor exchange any tech with ...

In general it's MUCH easier to not fuss with religions with isolated starts, the main problem with them is that you can't spread them to anyone, making the economic boost smaller. Even worse, everyone will hate you for your religion when they finally get in contact with you.

All said, I think the biggest blow in basing one's strategy around early founding is that on Immortal and above you need insane luck to found one, at least without crippling your early game completely by delaying Pottery and other crucial early game techs (if you race for Mono).

[sorinache]

The religion doesn't give you the religion buildings automatically... I consider building those a huge waste of time until after the initial expansion, and by then you are guaranteed to have enough religions to build all the temples and monasteries you want

I like improving my cities, I consider building military units a waste of ressources and a permanent drag on my economy. Different playing styles I guess. I still can't see how you can be "guaranteed" to have anything at all, except on pangaeas, though I'm not sure what you mean exactly by "initial expansion".

(which is not all of them in every city, obviously, the monastery boost for example is negligible except in the best science cities).

I forget a host of things : the +2 culture (a minor benefit, I admit), the ability to train missionaries w/o running Org. Rel and by training missionary to spread the religion and reap the financial benefits. And, when coupled with state religion, AP and Spiral Minaret, the +2 and +2

Though I do agree that, being a builder, I tend to build far more monasteries than optimal efficiency would dictate

IMO the only early benefit that applies to founding with Meditation/Poly(/Mono) is the guaranteed monument-skippage.

In general it's MUCH easier to not fuss with religions with isolated starts, the main problem with them is that you can't spread them to anyone, making the economic boost smaller. Even worse, everyone will hate you for your religion when they finally get in contact with you.

All said, I think the biggest blow in basing one's strategy around early founding is that on Immortal and above you need insane luck to found one, at least without crippling your early game completely by delaying Pottery and other crucial early game techs (if you race for Mono).

Hmmm, I might have to change my strategy when I'll advance to playing Immortal then. On Emperor, I found out that founding religions suits me perfectly.

[rah]

Yeah, early on I'm finding myself not converting to a religion after founding one or two. I didn't realize that you still got the +5 culture bonus in founder cities even if you have no state religion. This is useful if you found more than one religion. With early whipping, it takes awhile before that +1 happy is really required

You do ? I don't think so, I'm almost sure you don't. At most, you get a +1, not a +5. I do not whip, don't like the idea. On the contrary, I'm trying to maximize my pop, thus I take advantage of the +1 happy as fast as I can.



Hmmm, I might need this attitude when I'll switch to playing Immortal. On Emperor level I still (usually) have the luxury of not caring or contending to be the top dog religion.

Yes you do get the +5. Test it yourself and see. The easiest way to test is just get bud or hindu and see that your culture went up to +7 before you even convert. If you have multiple shrine cities and you really need the +5 in all of them early in the game and you can handle not have the extra happy, drop back into no state religion and you'll get it. LIke I said, I didn't realize this. I got curious when I saw a few people found religions in MP games but not converting and wondered why you wouldn't automatically. Now I know.

[Theben]

Plus the 1 turn anarchy, pissing off other nearby religious civs, and possibly not having any religious civics yet...

[rah]

It depends on what that turn of anarchy will cost me. If I only have one city cranking 13 beakers and 8 hammers, the turn of anarchy isn't that costly and can be quickly recouped by being able to have an extra productive citizen. Later when I have multiple cities and i'm cranking 30 or more beakers and lots of hammers being generated in other cities, it takes a lot longer to recoup that and it might be better to wait for a golden age or once you have the techs to switch civics that can take advantage of a religion.

The pissing off of nearby civs doesn't bother me much anymore, since I've seen +10 civs attack. Eventually they'll come and eventually I'll destroy them for their effort. But if it is earlier and I'm not really ready to fight off an invasion, I am more likely to worry about the + or - score. That window is quite small since I hate to feel vulnerable and you know something is going to come eventually. (unless you're isolated from everyone)

[Ming]

If you are blocking somebody from expanding, it generally doesn't matter if they love or hate you, they will start building their army the minute they can't put anymore cities down. You just have to plan on it, since it IS going to happen.

[rah]

Yeah, when you can see a settler of their's resting in a border city you can usually start counting down the turns.
But on some occasions, when you have open borders, they'll move their stack through and attack someone else.
There have been a few occasions where you see the SOD forming on your border and you move troops to respond only to see the stack cross your land.

[Ming]

Or... you have open borders... a settler moving up... and about 5 or six squares in your land not yet covered by your culture... You know where that settler is going

[rah]

Those don't bother me usually because 9 out of 10 times that newly formed city will eventually ask to join my magnificent empire, so my main concern is that it settles in the most optimal spot. (which rarely happens)