Getting started on Civ4 for a Civ2 vet

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Don't know why I wrote "Sistine Chapel"; I meant the National Epic (I think that's what it's called). D'oh! So Q4 is still a question.

Thanks for the quick answers!

(edited because it took me a while to figure out what I meant! )

[rah]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
1) It seems like there's absolutely no penalty in this game for unprovoked aggression; I can just invade who I want, when I want, and it doesn't change attitudes of other civs or anything else. True?

Not quite true. Any civ that is friendly to the civ you attack will get a -1 "you declared war on our friend" diplo modifier.

Granted a + or - 1 is not that big a thing it can make a difference when you're border line.
But if you're one of those that attacks, takes a few cities, demand their money or whatever for peace and then 10 turns later repeat, those -1s will add up.

[Blaupanzer]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly

I played Civ2 as a Rational Perfectionist, so I'm trying variations on that theme here. So far, Cultural/Philosophical (Frederick the Great) seems like my favorite.

I think that's all for now. Thanks in advance for any insights!

Haven't actually applied a concious Philosophical bent to my play. Like your thinking there. My best resulte so far have come from the Ethiopians (Creative/Organized) But the overwhelming favorites on the "Best Leader" thread are all financial civs with Willem (Netherlands) and Huyana Capec (Incas) far in the lead and the next civ being Hannibal (Carthiginians) in a distant third. I don't recall off the top of my head if one of the limited choices is Frederick, but you ought to post in that poll.

Limited insights:
1) The diplomatic penalty for initiating aggression is with the one attacked and friends. You get a -3 relation hit for the civ attacked. You get a -1 relation hit for any civ that was pleased or friendly with that civ at the time of the attack. This applies even if you join a war in progress.

2) Answered previously using corporations.

3) As noted, extra instances of resources are for trading. Keep that in mind if an enemy/spy destroys an improvement -- you usually can get the resource back most quickly by cancelling the deal that contains another instance of that resource.

4) For a philosophical civ, an effective combination is Hermitage and National Epic in the same city. Another combination is national epic OR Hermitage in the same city as the forest-preserve-related National Wonder. (Need to save lots of forest tiles for that city.) I like Hermitage with forest item and create lots of artists, free and set aside, if I want a Great Artist.

5) Answered. Each type of temple makes people happy (if that religion is the state religion? -- I think that applies. Maybe they all do, but I think not.)

[rah]

And actually two other world wonders increase Great artists.

Heroic epic and Mt Rushmore.

So what is a good combo? I guess it depends on your goal. (Great artists vs. city culture) IF it's great artists that you will use to boost other cities National epic and globe work well with global helping your happiness so you can grow bigger and apply more artist specialists while the national epic increases those Great people points.

If it's improving the culture in your lagging third great city, then hermitage will probably help in that city more.

If you're playing military early then heroic and globe can be used for whipping out units quickly without a happpy penalty.

If going for cultural victory, Mt. Rushmore is built in whichever great 3 city doesn't already have 2 national wonders.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by rah
And actually two other world wonders increase Great artists.

Heroic epic and Mt Rushmore.

Yeah, but Rushmore comes too late for my purposes, and I never seem to have the military requirements fro Heroic Epic.

Anyway, thanks again everyone!

[Unimatrix11]

BP: I am pretty sure a temple gives +1 happy no matter what.

[rah]

Yes, each different temple gives you +1 happy.
The presence of a religion in a city gives you +1 happy if it's your state religion. If you are running the FREE RELIGION civic you get +1 happy for every religion present in the city.

[lord of the mark]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly


Yeah, but Rushmore comes too late for my purposes, and I never seem to have the military requirements fro Heroic Epic.


Trying to get a unit up to promotion five is a nice little minigame in itself.

[Theben]

Play with Raging Barbs, and you'll have a unit for Heroic Epic soon enough.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Well, this is definitely...interesting. And certainly harder than Civ2.

Yesterday I finished a game on Noble that I won (space race) in spite of having made a number of really careless mistakes, so I figured I'd give Prince a shot.

Ouch!

Learned some lessons right away -- no slacking off on military, for example (something I could always do against the AI in Civ2). Others I'm still struggling with. The big one is figuring out a research order; it's not clear yet what techs, if any, I should be racing for, so I'm just researching what I seem to need at any given moment (based on threats, resources, civ trait, etc.). After being an Deity SSC player in Civ2, though, it feels weird not having an overarching research strategy. I suppose it will come.

The other thing I'm beginning to sense is that a civ choice that compliments my playing style might be better than one that perfectly matches it. For example, I know as a player I'm going to put lots of focus on culture, so I'm not sure I need a creative trait civ; I'm thinking of playng the spiritual/organized Indians next, since I like the effects of religion and low upkeep but would be unlikely to focus on them myself. We'll see.

[Unimatrix11]

Some traits are good for complementing (like creative as you mentioned), yet others like spiritual need to be levered. It wont do you much good (just save a couple of anarchy-turns) if you dont get one or preferably more religions. In some games i totally omit the religious branch of the tech tree - but having drawn a spiritual leader makes me think about that twice (at least).

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Well, my bafflement continues. I've now taken several runs at Prince, and they all seem to follow the same pattern. A decent start out of the gate, followed by a rapid falling behind in score, followed by the discovery that, by the medieval period, I'm way behind in the tech race (even though I'm a research fiend) AND have a neighbor on my border who has a gigantic military. How the hell does that happen? I mean, I could build fewer libraries and monastaries and more troops, but then I'd be even farther behind in techs. What the heck am I missing here?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
Well, my bafflement continues. I've now taken several runs at Prince, and they all seem to follow the same pattern. A decent start out of the gate, followed by a rapid falling behind in score, followed by the discovery that, by the medieval period, I'm way behind in the tech race (even though I'm a research fiend) AND have a neighbor on my border who has a gigantic military. How the hell does that happen? I mean, I could build fewer libraries and monastaries and more troops, but then I'd be even farther behind in techs. What the heck am I missing here?

I found that too. One, you really need a good start. Cant waste time looking for a city site, need to get the second city down fast. See Vel on the build order - settler first, or warrior/scout first. Then a worker. Second, as Ming said, city pops should NEVER (well almost never) be working unimproved squares. Third, dont build too many wonders. Fourth, techs you need are the ones to build the early improvements, and then the ones toward a religion if thats your goal. And towards your unique unit for a well timed war. Also for tech, while the AI can be tough in trading techs, you can still catch up that way, if you get a tech the AIs need and dont have.

In this game, on Prince (and above obviously) "a stern chase is a long chase" IE its almost impossible to catch up to the AI doing the same thing they are once you are even a little behind. Whether a tech race or an AC race. So you research what the AI does not have, even if its not your priority, so you can trade.

I have won on Prince once, Aztecs on a continental map. I tried as Roosevelt on an island map, but made the mistake of building stonehenge, cause of which i delayed getting calendar, which really hurt me. Im going to start again.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


I found that too. One, you really need a good start. Cant waste time looking for a city site, need to get the second city down fast. See Vel on the build order - settler first, or warrior/scout first. Then a worker. Second, as Ming said, city pops should NEVER (well almost never) be working unimproved squares. Third, dont build too many wonders. Fourth, techs you need are the ones to build the early improvements, and then the ones toward a religion if thats your goal. And towards your unique unit for a well timed war. Also for tech, while the AI can be tough in trading techs, you can still catch up that way, if you get a tech the AIs need and dont have.

Well, at least that sounds like what I'm trying; now I just have to make it work. As an aside, I'm struck by how little time I spend on Wonders, or at least World Wonders, in this game; it seems like they corrected for the way wonders really unbalanced Civ2.

Out of curiosity: it seems like if I wait to pursue religion techs until I've researched basic improvement techs, I can kiss goodbye any hope of founding a religion. Do you find that?

Also out of curiosity: is archery worth spending early research time on? I've been going for it fairly quickly in order to get decent city defenders, but since it doesn't lead anywhere I wonder if I'm wasting precious early turns on it.

[ybrevo]

"Out of curiosity: it seems like if I wait to pursue religion techs until I've researched basic improvement techs, I can kiss goodbye any hope of founding a religion. Do you find that?

Also out of curiosity: is archery worth spending early research time on? I've been going for it fairly quickly in order to get decent city defenders, but since it doesn't lead anywhere I wonder if I'm wasting precious early turns on it."

Well, I can´t really figure out how to do the quote thing here - but to give you an answer to your questions as I see it:
1. If I start with the Mysticism tech, I go straight for an early religion. If not I will concentrate on the tech´s that brings the ressources I need.
2. In my opinion archery can wait if you have a good, early UU or access to bronze and/or iron. I am playing the Incans at the moment, and the Quecha warriors are doing a fine job.

ybrevo