How do you pair your National Wonders?

[wodan11]

Originally posted by snoopy369
An optimal specialist GP farm nearly always makes more GPP than a wonder city over time (not by the end of the game, but earlier on it does), particularly at harder levels

What's your basis for that conclusion?

Let's see if I can duplicate your evidence. Let's say the happy limit is 8 and that both cities have 3 resources. The Specialist GP Farm (SGPF) works 3 food resources for12-14 food, eating 6 of that, leaving 6-8 to support 3-4 specialists who produce 9-12 GPP. Hammers? 0. But who needs hammers. You whip whatever you need. [When advanced buildings are needed (to run desired specialist types, or health or happy to grow larger) you're going to have to turn off some specialist while you regrow.]

The Production GP Farm (PGPF) works 2 food resources and 1 production resource (or vice-versa), eating 6 food but getting 0-4 food from the production resources, avg 2, so eating 4, leaving 4-5 to work mines or grass forests. (If vice-versa then that's a break even on food but if you're working grass forests you don't need the extra food.) Hammers: 1-2 production resources for 5-12 hammers, 5 mines or grass forests = 10-20 hammers, total 15-32 base hammers. With Forge, Lumbermills, Factory etc. this will easily crank production into 100+. In addition, this city can easily grow larger by ripping out happy and health buildings. In any event, what's it going to take to match the 6-12GPP from the SGPF? 3-6 wonders.

and it is much more flexible in terms of GPP allocation (you can choose the type of GP you get).

The SGPF has limited flexibility. It's limited by the buildings that enable the specialists, and it's ability to whip those buildings. For example, to get all scientists, you have to whip at minimum a Library and a University. The University, in particular, is going to be tough, since you have 0 hammers coming in. You could switch and work a couple of mines for a while, but that's going to cut your early GPP (which is listed as a benefit of the SGPF, so that benefit now has to be qualified).

Alternately, you could run Caste System. Running CS purely for your GP Farm isn't an optimal situation, because this is imposing an empire-wide civic for the benefit of just that one city.

Meanwhile, the PGPF also has limited flexibility. You can tune your tech research such that you can get the wonders of the predominant type of GP you desire. I do agree that the PGPF is more limited here than the SGPF. However, it's not a cut&dry situation, it's a matter of degree, and there are ways to compensate if this is something of particular desire.

In addition, it's important to point out that one predominant GPP-type is not necessarily a goal of all player/strategies. With the increased benefit of Golden Ages (GAs), the so-called "GP lottery" is not necessarily a bad thing. Furthermore, even if you do not intend to use your GP on GAs, Firaxis has made a concerted effort to make every single game desire different types of GP, particularly now with Corporations. Want Sushi? Oh, you need a merchant. But your SGPF only makes Great Scientists! Want to switch to merchants for 30 turns or so? Have to make a market and bank and work mines for a while and/or whip, dropping your GPP income.

Also, notice that the PGFP is not forced to run slavery in the whole empire just for this one city.

With representation it's usually worth a bit more, due to the science you get (+60 science... not half bad).

Good point.

To counter, the PGPF can double as a military unit city, making units in between wonders.

Note that you certainly need another city to generate Engineer GPs to build the key wonders in a specialist GP farm (Great Library, ie).

It's extremely difficult to do this, as the SGPF is outstripping that other city in GPP. In fact, I'd say the micromanagement is so difficult that you'll only get 1-2 GEs (if that).

However, you can have plenty of forests in a city with plenty of food, as I discuss above It just depends on the game. And certainly there are lots of games where you can't build an optimal specialist farm, but can build an optimal wonder farm.

Yes, that's exactly my point all along. It depends on the map. For example, if your "ideal" city with floodplains and forests was your only good commerce city site and the rest of your empire was production cities, you would almost certainly not want to "waste" that city on your SGPF farm, you would want to cottage it over, so instead you would be better having a PGPF.

The converse is true as well... if you have a ton of good commerce city sites and only one or two good production city sites, then you surely want to pick the highest food spot for your SGPF and use your production cities for units or whatever.

Additionally, the details certainly change with regards to leader - an Ind. leader may be better off building a wonder city, while an Exp leader builds great specialist GP farms.

Ind is a good point. For Exp... I almost always find my limitation on my SGPF is happiness, not health.

Ultimately, the point here is that Civ4 is a wonderful game with many different strategies that work, and it's not necessarily possible to say which is truly 'better' since each game has different elements to it, and each player a different play style

Totally agreed.

Wodan

[snoopy369]

It's not hard to run civics to make the SGPF far superior, and they're not necessarily civics you wouldn't otherwise want to use:
Caste System
Representation
Pacifism
You certainly can't run this without caste system, and wouldn't want to; it's far too valuable of a civic for this strategy.
Rep gives you +3 happy faces (this better be your largest city...) and it's not hard to get the happy buildings up for this city as well as long as it has some hammer squares available. Certainly there is still ultimately a bit of a happy limit, but it's often above your health cap (particularly if you don't want to waste time building aqueducts etc.) Usually my happy cap is somewhere around 18 for these cities, without really trying (and Globe Theater is certainly available if you are concerned about this... not relevant if we're assuming NP of course, but some games you'll want one, some the other)
Pacifism of course you can only run some of the time, but I wouldn't run a pure specialist economy during a game where I was heavily warring anyhow.

Rep. and Caste System are excellent for running a Specialist Economy, which I'd usually run if I'm going this strategy. It's not that hard, generally, to run this; you end up with a much higher science level than you do with pure cottages (you certainly still build some in non-food-growth cities, just not in your +food cities). +6 beakers/scientist at a measly 2 scientists per city outside of the GP city gives you 12 beakers per city PLUS any innate trade they get, which is in the Medieval era more than you'd get with a cottage economy (PLUS periodic great scientists).

GEs: You can easily get 2-3 great engineers in this strategy; the key is they're some of your first GPs. Build the Pyramids early in your capital or some other great city for this, and the Hanging Gardens, and run an Eng. specialist; it's not hard at all.

The GP lottery is a very bad thing, because you never get the kinds you want. For the early GAs of course you don't care much, but once you've had 3 golden ages, getting that 4 GP golden age is a ***** without a customizable GP city(s). In Caste System it's trivial to directly grow a GS, GM, or GA in little time at all, and you just need one other city to produce something else - Spy, Engineer, or Priest - which you should be able to manage.

I've gone 5 GAs before in nearly every game where I've made the effort, and generally could go 6 if I played the game all the way through.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by snoopy369
It's not hard to run civics to make the SGPF far superior,

FAR superior? What data do you have to make this claim?

I'll even grant that in some, maybe even most, games the SGPF may be superior. Not all games, and usually not "far" superior. That's based on my experience trying both types. I'm actually more versed in the SGPF, but I've done the PGPF perhaps 8-10 times and that's enough to tell me it's superior in some cases, and gives the SGPF a run for its money in most others.

and they're not necessarily civics you wouldn't otherwise want to use:
Caste System
Representation
Pacifism
You certainly can't run this without caste system, and wouldn't want to; it's far too valuable of a civic for this strategy.

You can't do all that early except for maybe Pyramids, and that's pretty difficult on high level. So are you just talking about the time between Constitution and when National Park is available? That's what we're dancing around here, anyway.

Caste System is available fairly early, sure. As a general rule I would agree it's "not necessarily something you wouldn't otherwise want to use". Emphasis on the "not necessarily", meaning it's often something you would indeed not want to use.

Pacifism... meh. I'm not sure it's worth it just to run it for your GP Farm. If you're running a SE, but even then not always. Much stronger is Organized Religion or Theocracy.

Rep. and Caste System are excellent for running a Specialist Economy, which I'd usually run if I'm going this strategy.

So what do you do when you're not running a SE? Skip having a GP Farm?

It's not that hard, generally, to run this; you end up with a much higher science level than you do with pure cottages (you certainly still build some in non-food-growth cities, just not in your +food cities).

Let's not go there. This is the whole SE vs CE debate.

GEs: You can easily get 2-3 great engineers in this strategy; the key is they're some of your first GPs. Build the Pyramids early in your capital or some other great city for this, and the Hanging Gardens, and run an Eng. specialist; it's not hard at all.

How in the world do you build the Pyramids on high level? If you're Ind and have stone; otherwise you're probably not going to get it. Hanging Gardens: easily possible if you beeline, but by the time you build it AND generate a GE, the Great Library will be long gone.

The GP lottery is a very bad thing, because you never get the kinds you want. For the early GAs of course you don't care much, but once you've had 3 golden ages, getting that 4 GP golden age is a ***** without a customizable GP city(s).

Not in my experience. Actually, the 4th and 5th GP is easily customizable with the PGPF because at that point you can always turn off a forest or two and run some specialists. By that time your production is through the roof anyway. Especially if you simply found Sushi, this is trivial. This adds 9-12 GPP (or more) of the type you want. Usually I use a GG to round out my 5th or 6th GP type, maybe you're forgetting you can do that.

In Caste System it's trivial to directly grow a GS, GM, or GA in little time at all, and you just need one other city to produce something else - Spy, Engineer, or Priest - which you should be able to manage.

Okay, so the SGPF can golden ages just as easily, possibly more so, as a PGPF, but only if you're running CS. Not sure the conclusion here. Seems like either situation can get the golden ages coming in.

I've gone 5 GAs before in nearly every game where I've made the effort, and generally could go 6 if I played the game all the way through.

Give the same effort into using a PGPF and let us know. Otherwise, we're just trading anecdotes.

Wodan

[Yosho]

Originally posted by wodan11
To wit: A production city cranking out wonders is a very effective "GP Farm".

Wodan

Sure, but the city where I'm cranking out wonders in that point of the game is usually my capital (while running beuocracy) and there are other national wonders I'd rather have there. Besides, I want my national epic city to be one where i can get whatever great person I need when I need it.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Yosho
Sure, but the city where I'm cranking out wonders in that point of the game is usually my capital (while running beuocracy) and there are other national wonders I'd rather have there.

Why "waste" Bureaucracy on a production city? I'd usually rather spam cottages in my capitol (even if running a SE) and rake in the commerce.

Besides, I want my national epic city to be one where i can get whatever great person I need when I need it.

Sure, Snoopy and I already talked about that. If this is your #1 critera then you should always do a SGPF.

Personally I like variety and I like playing different game strategies. If I played the same way all the time I would have gotten bored with Civ long ago and I'd be playing something else.

Wodan

[Yosho]

Originally posted by wodan11

Why "waste" Bureaucracy on a production city? I'd usually rather spam cottages in my capitol (even if running a SE) and rake in the commerce.

Why is that? I usually find it easier to produce commerse then hammers in the rest of my empire; any city on the grasslands or by the coast or by a river is a potential mega commerce city, there aren't nearly as many potential mega hammer cities, unless you do something sub-par like early workshops or early waterwheels or something, so whatever hammers I can get out of my beurocacy city is a bonus.

Besides, my capital is often both. Especally at the early stage of the game when I want to build the national epic, my capital is often the best production city and the best commerse city at the same time. And if I've built any wonders by then (say, the Oracle, or the Pyramids, or Stonehenge or the Great Library or whatever), they're probably in my capital.

Sometimes I do end up building the natioanl epic in my capital just because I have so many wonders there it's worth it, especally if I have the great library there, but I don't really like to do that, it seems like there are usually other national wonders I'd rather wait for there.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Yosho
Why is that? I usually find it easier to produce commerse then hammers in the rest of my empire

It's not a zero-sum game.

there aren't nearly as many potential mega hammer cities

Why do you need mega hammer cities?

Besides, my capital is often both. Especally at the early stage of the game when I want to build the national epic, my capital is often the best production city and the best commerse city at the same time.

Personally I wouldn't say post-Bureaucracy is the "early" stage of the game. But anyway, it sounds as though you don't specialize your cities nearly as much as I usually do.

Even with a 50% bonus, in my experience the capitol can't keep up with a specialized city of either type, unlesss you have a miracle start spot (such as Snoopy's proverbial half floodplain half hills and forest).

And if I've built any wonders by then (say, the Oracle, or the Pyramids, or Stonehenge or the Great Library or whatever), they're probably in my capital.

Well, that seems like peronal preference. True the capitol has a bias on some mapscripts to give you good resources or whatnot, but otherwise there's no reason to build wonders there in preference to any production city.

Wodan

[snoopy369]

There is an advantage to a 'super-hammer' city compared to a super commerce city; a super hammer city can build wonders (etc.) faster, since you can't cooperate, while you can cooperate on science. However, you have several multiplicative bonuses to commerce, while only additive bonuses to hammers, so commerce bonus is worth more.

[Yosho]

Originally posted by wodan11
Why do you need mega hammer cities?

Well, I don't, necessarally. But I do need hammers, and if I can't build mega hammer cities then I need more unspecalised cities that produce some hammers and some commerce.

I've played games where hammers are just not to be found (usually games with a lot of coastline), and while those are winnable, I find it much harder. It always seems to me like the key to winning is to build as many good economic buildings as you can while maintaining a large enough army to not get crushed in a surprise attack, mixed with short periods of building a very large army for conquest, and an occasioanl wonder. Commerce is important, but it seems like the best way to get commerce over the long run is to have a good production base and some commerce sources; lots of towns and not enough hammers always seems to leave me in a more frail and vulnerable position in the long run.

Personally I wouldn't say post-Bureaucracy is the "early" stage of the game.

"Early" as in much of my empire is still underdeveloped, most of my cities still have a low population and are still getting their land developed by workers, and I'm generally still expanding peacefully into empty land. Then again, I place a very high priority on getting Bureaucracy; I usually beline for it right after my alphabet beeline finishes, and usually get it significantly before any AI's do, on the Emperor difficulty setting.

But anyway, it sounds as though you don't specialize your cities nearly as much as I usually do.

Even with a 50% bonus, in my experience the capitol can't keep up with a specialized city of either type, unlesss you have a miracle start spot (such as Snoopy's proverbial half floodplain half hills and forest).

Perhaps not, but even when I do, I do find my capital usually outpreforms them at this fairly early stage of the game. Specilized cities eventually can pass the capital unless the capital has really great resources like multiple gold mines or whatever, but it usually takes a while for specilized production cities to get a high enough population to work the bunch of hill mines the usualy contain, and it usually takes a while for specized economy cities to grow enough full towns to catch up with the capital; it's not just the +50%, the big advantage the capital has in population growth and town growth plays a big role here.

Also, whenever I have the happiness and health for it to work out, I max out the population of my capital ASAP, usually building most of my workers and settlers in secondary food-heavy cities so they don't slow down my capital's growth and avoiding doing whipping there whenever practical. That's my main economic driver for much of the early game, in terms of both commerce and hammers, and 1 extra population in the capital is usually worth far more then 1 extra population somewhere else.

And if I've built any wonders by then (say, the Oracle, or the Pyramids, or Stonehenge or the Great Library or whatever), they're probably in my capital.

Well, that seems like peronal preference. True the capitol has a bias on some mapscripts to give you good resources or whatnot, but otherwise there's no reason to build wonders there in preference to any production city.

If you get one out of the first group of wonders (Oracle, Stonehenge, Pyramids, Temple of Artimus, stuff like that), it pretty much has to be in your capital; no way is your second or third city every going to get enough hammers soon enough to make one of those before the AI gets it.

Around the time Great Library comes around, you might be able to build it somewhere else if you want it. That's probably the only wonder you'll have in that city at that point, though.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by snoopy369
There is an advantage to a 'super-hammer' city compared to a super commerce city; a super hammer city can build wonders (etc.) faster,

Exactly. But, we're talking about the possibility of a PGPF via building wonders here, so you only need one such city. So, the statement that "there aren't nearly as many potential mega hammer cities" doesn't really have bearing on this discussion.

since you can't cooperate, while you can cooperate on science. However, you have several multiplicative bonuses to commerce, while only additive bonuses to hammers, so commerce bonus is worth more.

Hence, it's better for the capitol running Bureaucracy to get as much commerce as possible, utilizing production only to create new buildings to increase commerce.

Wodan

[wodan11]

Originally posted by Yosho
Well, I don't, necessarally. But I do need hammers, and if I can't build mega hammer cities then I need more unspecalised cities that produce some hammers and some commerce.

As I said, I'm beginning to think you don't specialize cities nearly as much as I do.

I run a "generalist" city strategy sometimes, but it's almost always suboptimal in my experience. Better are commerce cities with minimal hammers.

Anyway, in your strategy, what's the value of having cities that are "some hammers and some commerce" (by this do you mean 50/50? Otherwise you're talking about EVERY city because it's impossible to not have at least some of each) versus "minimal hammers and a lot of commerce"?

If we're talking about making commerce buildings in those cities, then we're talking about the same thing, just dickering over how fast to make those buildings and whether to supplement hammer production with slavery and universal suffrage. They're still commerce cities, and don't have any bearing on the discussion of a PGPF

IMO the only other needed things are units, and it's much more efficient to devote one high production city to cranking out units than to spread their production out and lessen the value of all your commerce cities.

I've played games where hammers are just not to be found (usually games with a lot of coastline), and while those are winnable, I find it much harder. It always seems to me like the key to winning is to build as many good economic buildings as you can while maintaining a large enough army to not get crushed in a surprise attack, mixed with short periods of building a very large army for conquest, and an occasioanl wonder.

If I had literally NO production city sites for a military city (note that a farmed / slavery site with a river which can later be watermilled is very effective), or a PGPF then obviously those strategies aren't an option. This however is the exception, not the norm.

This situation is analogous to desiring to run a SE when you have no fresh water. Obviously you have no choice but to do something else, a CE or TE or whatever. And, it's not to say that that's a bad choice. You have to look at the terrain in your eventual empire when you decide what strat you're going to pursue.

Commerce is important, but it seems like the best way to get commerce over the long run is to have a good production base and some commerce sources; lots of towns and not enough hammers always seems to leave me in a more frail and vulnerable position in the long run.

Do you EVER do a military city or two instead of what you describe?

Anyway this discussion is getting more and more away from the discussion of what to combo the NE with, or a SGPF vs PGPF.

Having a production military city or spreading out your unit production is really a different topic.

"Early" as in much of my empire is still underdeveloped, most of my cities still have a low population and are still getting their land developed by workers, and I'm generally still expanding peacefully into empty land. Then again, I place a very high priority on getting Bureaucracy; I usually beline for it right after my alphabet beeline finishes, and usually get it significantly before any AI's do, on the Emperor difficulty setting.

Alphabet beeline?? Are you not playing with BtS? No problem if you aren't, but we probably should establish if we're playing with different versions of the game.

If you are, what's your value of an Alphabet beeline? I'm curious.

Anyway, beelining Bureaucracy still takes quite a while, and means you don't have many wonder opportunities, period, because you aren't getting those techs. No Pyramids, no Great Lighthouse, no Great Library, no Hanging Gardens. Right?

Perhaps not, but even when I do, I do find my capital usually outpreforms them at this fairly early stage of the game. ...it usually takes a while for specilized production cities to get a high enough population to work the bunch of hill mines the usualy contain

Do you use slavery in them?

I don't find it takes long at all to grow my PGPF. I get to pick its location out of all the potential production cities in my immediate area, so it's not too hard to find either floodplain or a food resource or two along with mines/forests. Even if it doesn't have those, starting it off with farms will easily grow it to max size very soon.

Let's say the happy cap is size 8. Your capitol will be working 1-3 food resources, plus 3 cottages or coast, plus 3 mines. The mines give 2-3 hammers each, plus 50% for Bureaucracy, so that's about 11. (Plus Forge and all that, but the PGPF would get that too, so let's skip it.) Meanwhile, the PGPF could have 1-2 food resources, 1-2 farms, and 5-6 mines, total about 13.

, and it usually takes a while for specized economy cities to grow enough full towns to catch up with the capital; it's not just the +50%, the big advantage the capital has in population growth and town growth plays a big role here.

Depends on how soon you make new settlers I suppose. Anyway, the capitol will get Towns before anyone else, sure, and that's why it's a good idea to have it be all cottages instead of 3-4 cottages plus mines.

(This all presumes the player is going for Bureaucracy.)

Also, whenever I have the happiness and health for it to work out, I max out the population of my capital ASAP, usually building most of my workers and settlers in secondary food-heavy cities so they don't slow down my capital's growth and avoiding doing whipping there whenever practical. That's my main economic driver for much of the early game, in terms of both commerce and hammers, and 1 extra population in the capital is usually worth far more then 1 extra population somewhere else.

Not sure what this has to do with whether you put the NE in your capitol or elsewhere.

If you get one out of the first group of wonders (Oracle, Stonehenge, Pyramids, Temple of Artimus, stuff like that), it pretty much has to be in your capital; no way is your second or third city every going to get enough hammers soon enough to make one of those before the AI gets it.

I disagree. For instance, waiting to get Quarries means you have a certain amount of "lead time" during which you can do other things, such as start a few other cities. Having stone or marble means you have a strong shot at those wonders, if you really want them.

Also, I personally think the first priority of business is BW or AH (or Archery). Only after that are wonders even a wet dream. If you start out the gate building Stonehenge, you deserve to get pwned by the AI.

Around the time Great Library comes around, you might be able to build it somewhere else if you want it. That's probably the only wonder you'll have in that city at that point, though.

As I mentioned, I'm not sure how you have a shot at the Great Library if you go get Civil Service as a beeline. Then again, I've never tried it in quite that fashion so feel free to walk us through it. If it's really that strong, I'm missing out and will try it my next game!

(To clarify, I've beelined CS, but only in conjunction with Machinery to get early Maces. I've never done it so that I could get early Bureaucracy to turn my capitol into a wonder city.)

By the way, thanks for all your thoughts. This is an interesting & enjoyable discussion.

Wodan

[Yosho]

Originally posted by wodan11

As I said, I'm beginning to think you don't specialize cities nearly as much as I do.

I run a "generalist" city strategy sometimes, but it's almost always suboptimal in my experience. Better are commerce cities with minimal hammers.

Anyway, in your strategy, what's the value of having cities that are "some hammers and some commerce" (by this do you mean 50/50? Otherwise you're talking about EVERY city because it's impossible to not have at least some of each) versus "minimal hammers and a lot of commerce"?

A couple of things. First of all, I tend to think that the most efficent way to get commerce is towns, coast, and sometimes windmills; I tend to think the most efficent way to get hammers is mines, windmills, waterwheels, and lumberyards. Some cities, you look at them and it's obveous that they would be an ideal specilist city; fishing villages pretty much have to be specilist commerce cities, as do cities in empty grasslands, while OTOH some cities are obveously places so as to be ideal production cities. However, a lot of cities are in between, geographically speaking.

Specilist cities are easier to get going quickly because you might not want to get all the buildings, but generilist cities, you can usually get more efficent use out of each city square because you're not having some of then doing a suboptimal use just in order to focus on your specility.

If we're talking about making commerce buildings in those cities, then we're talking about the same thing, just dickering over how fast to make those buildings and whether to supplement hammer production with slavery and universal suffrage. They're still commerce cities, and don't have any bearing on the discussion of a PGPF

IMO the only other needed things are units, and it's much more efficient to devote one high production city to cranking out units than to spread their production out and lessen the value of all your commerce cities.

Well, I usually have a couple of cities that are almost always cranking out units, but in case of war, I have a lot more cities that can turn out units in reasonable amounts of time, while in time of peace, they get all the economic and happiness and whatever buildings more quickly. I think that gives more flexability, and a better ability to quicky recover when something bad happens.

Can you really build enough guys in 1 or 2 millitary cities to fight all of your wars for you? I've never found that that was enough.

Commerce is important, but it seems like the best way to get commerce over the long run is to have a good production base and some commerce sources; lots of towns and not enough hammers always seems to leave me in a more frail and vulnerable position in the long run.

Do you EVER do a military city or two instead of what you describe?

Yeah, if I have a good site for a mega-hammer city, I'll certanly build one or two. But even cranking along at full speed, they're not likely to build all the millitary units I need during war on their own.

"Early" as in much of my empire is still underdeveloped, most of my cities still have a low population and are still getting their land developed by workers, and I'm generally still expanding peacefully into empty land. Then again, I place a very high priority on getting Bureaucracy; I usually beline for it right after my alphabet beeline finishes, and usually get it significantly before any AI's do, on the Emperor difficulty setting.

Alphabet beeline?? Are you not playing with BtS? No problem if you aren't, but we probably should establish if we're playing with different versions of the game.

If you are, what's your value of an Alphabet beeline? I'm curious.

Anyway, beelining Bureaucracy still takes quite a while, and means you don't have many wonder opportunities, period, because you aren't getting those techs. No Pyramids, no Great Lighthouse, no Great Library, no Hanging Gardens. Right?

Yeah, I play BTS.

I suppose I wasn't clear; I don't beeline Alphabet RIGHT away, either get copper first, or else a religion then copper then the usually the oracle first (and of course the oracle speeds up the process with a free tech), then whatever techs I need to work the resources I have (so if I have stone or marble, I'll get masonry here, and then I might build the pyramids; if I have fish, I'll get sailing).

There's a lot of different ways to start the game, but the alphabet beeline is usually one of the early things I do right after that; or, alternatly, if I'm not getting a religion, I go right for bronzeworking, and then assuming I have copper, I start the alphabet beeline (with either masonry or sailing mixed in there somewhere if I have quarry resources or a fishing capital). The good thing about that beeline is that everything on that tech path are things you also want and need ASAP; the beeline is basically farming, animal husbandry, pottery, then writing, for early libraries and open borders which improves your relations with AI's, and then alphabet, which lets you tech trade and usually lets you backfill whatever early techs you skipped during the beeline. Alphabet is the most expensive tech on that path, but it's worth it because of the big advantage you get if you start tech trading first.

I usually do get an early wonder of some type. If I get an early religion, then I always try to grab either stonehenge or the oracle. (The order here is usually get hinduism, get bronzeworking, then go for oracle)

Anyway, after alphabet, then the best way to take advantage of that position on the tech tree is either to go for the great library or else to go right for beurocracy, IMHO. The civil service beeline is expensive, but you can sometimes pick up confusinism on the way, which is nice, and the economic payoff from getting beuocracy before the AI's is quite big.

You are right that going right for beurocrcacy right away at this point precludes going for Great Library. I don't put as high a priority on Great Library as I used to, pre-BTS, now that you have to go 2 techs out of your way to get it instead of just 1 (and if you go for it and DON'T get the wonder, it's a disaster). After Alphabet, that's basically the next choice, is do you want to go for great library or do you want to head for civil service (or something else); I only go for great library if I feel like I'm far enough ahead of the AI's that I'm quite confident I'll get it. And that does change the discussion, because if I do get the great library I'm very likely to build the national epic there, even though that usually means building it in my capital.

Perhaps not, but even when I do, I do find my capital usually outpreforms them at this fairly early stage of the game. ...it usually takes a while for specilized production cities to get a high enough population to work the bunch of hill mines the usualy contain

Do you use slavery in them?

Not usually in that kind of city; usually don't need it in a production city, unless you need a culture building early.

If you get one out of the first group of wonders (Oracle, Stonehenge, Pyramids, Temple of Artimus, stuff like that), it pretty much has to be in your capital; no way is your second or third city every going to get enough hammers soon enough to make one of those before the AI gets it.

I disagree. For instance, waiting to get Quarries means you have a certain amount of "lead time" during which you can do other things, such as start a few other cities. Having stone or marble means you have a strong shot at those wonders, if you really want them.

Oh, you can start other cities, sure. You can start a second city and then build the Oracle or the Pyramids. But you still pretty much have to build the Oracle in your capital, right? How often can you start a second city and then immedatly build the Oracle there and get it before the AI does?

Also, I personally think the first priority of business is BW or AH (or Archery). Only after that are wonders even a wet dream. If you start out the gate building Stonehenge, you deserve to get pwned by the AI.

Well...BW is always at latest the second thing I go for. I'd only build stonehenge if I got one of the two early religions, for the GPP (and even then, I'm usually more likely to go for the Oracle instead). Getting an early religion and then going for bronzeworking while you're building stonehenge is certanly risky, but you can sometimes pull it off.

(To clarify, I've beelined CS, but only in conjunction with Machinery to get early Maces. I've never done it so that I could get early Bureaucracy to turn my capitol into a wonder city.)

Oh, after I get CS, machinery is often the next thing I go for, but I'm usually at least 2-3 techs away from it at that point. I am usually the first one to get macemen, though, and if I didn't do a rush stratagy I'll often start my first offensive war right after macemen.

At this point, I often have a few wonders in my capital; Oracle or Stonehenge, often the Great Lighthouse or the Temple of Artimus, sometimes the Great Library, and often a Shrine there too (which also makes great person points). After Bureaucray, my capital really takes off, and I'm likely to build future wonders there as well.

Often, I end up with a national epic city (something with a lot of food but not much else; very often a fishing village) which I can direct to make the great people I need, and my capital having several wonders making other great people from time to time. My first couple of great people usually come from my capital; my national epic city takes over some time later.

By the way, thanks for all your thoughts. This is an interesting & enjoyable discussion.

You too, this is very interesting.

[hart276]

I think pairing civics and wonders is more exciting... Like globe theatre and beaurcracy. Or national wonder and pacifism. Maybe even beauracracy and military academy.

[wodan11]

Originally posted by wodan11
Usually I use a GG to round out my 5th or 6th GP type, maybe you're forgetting you can do that.

This is wrong. You can't use GGs for Golden Ages.

Wodan