Build barracks later - Most of the time

[realpolitic]

This goes even more for civ4 than civ3. A barrack would give you 4/3 the strength of the original unit, here it's at best, 20% extra for city attck/defence. Here's how it works for axmen:

1 regular axman = attack value 5
1 city raider axman= city attack 6

both have the 50% meelee advantage, so it stays proportional

break even is after the city has produced roughly 350 shields:

350 shields no barracks

10 axmen => attack at 5 x 10 = 50

340 shields building barracks first

8 axmen => attack at 6 x 8 = 48

Eventually, my city upkeep costs will get high, then I start building barracks as part of my city improvements.

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Broken math. Go back three squares.

Problem #1: the melee advantage is a function of base strength, not promoted strength. Very minor quibble.

Problem #2: CIV4's combat model is non linear. Therefore treating a 20% attack bonus as 20% more hammers is very suspect.

Problem #3: Troops that survive combat get additional opportunities to provide more value. Think compound interest.

Problem #4: You've overlooked the ROE from the proximity of the second promotion. Example. Send a level 1 axe against a level 1 axe, and you have a 50% shot of getting a level 2 axe. Send a level 2 axe against a level 1 axe, and you've got a 68%? (complete guess - use the built in combat calculator to get the right number) shot of getting a level 3 axe.

Edit: C1 vs unpromoted is 68.1%

[joncnunn]

Also, evenually you'll be nearing the number of free support units. Considering that every unit over the limit costs 1/2 a gold (truncate) * inflation rate, I think it's clearly more cost effective once your near it to have slightly fewer but more powerful units.

[jbp26]

in the early game, when you're trying to take a city and have no catapults, a few promoted units can be hte difference between victoryand defeat.

[snoopy369]

In the very early game, unless you get cheap barracks or get a price cut or culture for having them, it's not worth it. Two extra chariots in a chariot rush of 6 chariots (vs 4) is better than the promotions.

Once you get past that point, it's probably worth building them, though. I'd say you'd have to make 5 axemen or 2 macemen for them to be worth their hammers.

[couerdelion]

Originally posted by snoopy369
In the very early game, unless you get cheap barracks or get a price cut or culture for having them, it's not worth it. Two extra chariots in a chariot rush of 6 chariots (vs 4) is better than the promotions.

Once you get past that point, it's probably worth building them, though. I'd say you'd have to make 5 axemen or 2 macemen for them to be worth their hammers.

A chariot rush of 6 chariots?!!

6 chariots may be enough to take one city but not any more. Even then you are gambling on their not being a spear in the city which is a distinct possibility if you have already built a worker and 6 chariots. But then you are stuck and are likely to find the city hard to hold unless you bring some more chariots to the war.

Personally, I would expect to need something like 12 chariots to execute a decent rush. And the likelihood of meeting a 40% culture barrier at the capital would make the bonuses that more important.

Also noting that the real bonus for something like Chariots is not in the first promotion but in the second. With the first promotion your survival chance is slightly higher. But with the second you get access to medics and sentries which are very effective promotions in the early game.

Even for a less aggressive game, you’ll want one barracks quite early simply because of the dramatic improvement it makes to survival of the smaller number of units that you build. Without it, some of those hammers spent building units are lost due to casualties. The barracks therefore gives you some decent hammer savings which can be used on those early game wonders that you want. I’m sure enough of you have lost chariots or axemen to barbarian archers to understand this.

[Blake]

Except for the ultra early chariot rush, what is usually the best way is to have a dedicated military pump or two. A city which builds a barracks only (maybe a granary but often you can just grow to size 3-4 and work pure hills), and then cranks out units non-stop. This frees up other cities to not build barracks or military. You kind of get the best of both worlds.

You wont always be blessed with ideal military pump cities, but they aren't too unusual, anything with a food special and a few hills and/or hammery specials will work.

A dedicated military pump - say something like this:
Founded on Plains Hill (2h)
Working Mined Plains Hill Copper (6h)
Working Mined Plains Hill (4h)
Working Grassland Cows (4f 2h)

That city at size 3 produces 14h/turn, every 10 turns it produces:
5.6 Archers
4 Axemen
3.5 Swords

This tends to be significantly higher rate of unit training than you can get with whip-pumps, which are typically going to produce only about 2-3 Axemen per 10 turns. You'll typically do better whipping "infrastructure" like workers/settlers and libraries. Of course sometimes you just have to make do with what you have available... but when they are available, optimized military pumps are great and it's clearly a complete no-brainer to build a barracks in an optimized military pump.

[Krill]

[q=Blake]That city at size 13 produces 14h/turn[/q]

*cough*

[Supr49er]

If you play with raging barbarians you can often promote your units to 5 experience quickly by fighting animals on the way to your enemy. I usually wait for barracks until my second city - which will have copper/iron resource my capital never seems to.

[Kuciwalker]

How are you getting that city to size 13 with nothing more than a Barracks and Granary?

[Petrus2]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
How are you getting that city to size 13 with nothing more than a Barracks and Granary?

I'm pretty sure he meant 3 and just typo'd it

[Quillan]

I think that's a typo, and is supposed to be size 3 rather than 13. Between the cows and the base 2 food for the city square, it's producing enough food to support size 3, and a size 3 city will work 4 squares including the center. 14 hammers from a size 3 city is nice.

[Ingot]

Not building barraks early accomodates faster and safer expansion.
Having more military than the opponents will deter any early invasions while you are growing.
After your borders are firmly established, build your barraks in the designated troop factories.
The enemy considers your power level and does not decide to attack based on their level of promotion.
Your next generation army will be more advanced through barraks and civics.

[snoopy369]

Originally posted by couerdelion


A chariot rush of 6 chariots?!!

6 chariots may be enough to take one city but not any more. Even then you are gambling on their not being a spear in the city which is a distinct possibility if you have already built a worker and 6 chariots. But then you are stuck and are likely to find the city hard to hold unless you bring some more chariots to the war.

Personally, I would expect to need something like 12 chariots to execute a decent rush. And the likelihood of meeting a 40% culture barrier at the capital would make the bonuses that more important.

Also noting that the real bonus for something like Chariots is not in the first promotion but in the second. With the first promotion your survival chance is slightly higher. But with the second you get access to medics and sentries which are very effective promotions in the early game.

Even for a less aggressive game, you’ll want one barracks quite early simply because of the dramatic improvement it makes to survival of the smaller number of units that you build. Without it, some of those hammers spent building units are lost due to casualties. The barracks therefore gives you some decent hammer savings which can be used on those early game wonders that you want. I’m sure enough of you have lost chariots or axemen to barbarian archers to understand this.

A six chariot rush is enough in MP against anyone who doesn't have copper or iron, early in the game. I don't suggest only making 6 ever, but an early 6 rush is plenty for going after an early city. I'm suggesting doing this when your average opponent only has 2 cities (or 3 if he's not building military at all) - basically worker->settler->chariots** with your capital, and worker->chariots** with your second city, using chopping to build faster. For those rushes no barracks is needed of course

In SP I don't recommend ultra early chariot rushes at all... the AI usually has enough units to make them unprofitable.

[Yosho]

It's also worth mentioning that you will build the barracks eventually, and it's obveously more profatable in the long run to build the barracks and then the units rather then several units and then the barracks.

As soon as I get a bit of a break and don't need the unit right now, I build the barraks. If you build it sooner rather then later, you have a barraks and 8 experenced axemen, rather then 8 inexperenced axemen and a barraks, which is pretty obveously better.