The Holy Roman Empire? Seriously?!

[Shrapnel12]

For those who don't want the Hebrews included, why not? Also do you really think Firaxis would leave them out for fear of offending Muslims? Talk about outrageous and absurd. That would be like leaving out any black civilization because the KKK might be offended.

So Hitler and Japanese emperors are left out for legal reasons? Which country? Is Firaxis in Japan or do they just obey Japanese law because they don't want to lose the huge market? Anyone else find it ironic (maybe a little hypocritical) that a country would make inclusion of Hitler in a game illegal, but not care that the game allows pretty much the same atrocities that Hitler is so infamous for?

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Shrapnel12
For those who don't want the Hebrews included, why not? Also do you really think Firaxis would leave them out for fear of offending Muslims? Talk about outrageous and absurd. That would be like leaving out any black civilization because the KKK might be offended.

So Hitler and Japanese emperors are left out for legal reasons? Which country? Is Firaxis in Japan or do they just obey Japanese law because they don't want to lose the huge market? Anyone else find it ironic (maybe a little hypocritical) that a country would make inclusion of Hitler in a game illegal, but not care that the game allows pretty much the same atrocities that Hitler is so infamous for?

Germany has very broad prohibitions on pretty much anything including Hitler, Nazis, Swastikas, whatever. You can't even sing the old lyrics to the National Anthem (Deutschland Ueber Alles!) in public. So of course Hitler is out in Germany.

Not to mention a lot of Americans, um, hate him rather vigorously. I know that Stalin and Mao were guilty of similar atrocities, but Hitler was more "publicized" to Americans by WWII.

Regardless, the Hitler issue has been discussed way too much on this forum. Suffice it to say, yet again, Firaxis will never include him.

Yes, Civ4 is sold in Japan. The Japanese have a very large market for electronics, computer games and American stuff. So to avoid losing the Japanese market, as has already been said, no emperors.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/Take-2-Interactive-Civilization-IV/dp/B000FHGA4S

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Locutus
Dale (who designed the WWII scenario) said on CFC that he used the vice-chancellor IIRC (though he didn't say which one). He could easily reuse existing leaderheads for relatively unimportant figures like that.

Didn't the WWII scenario included with Civ2 have Hitler as the leader of the German civ?

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

Didn't the WWII scenario included with Civ2 have Hitler as the leader of the German civ?

Yes, actually. But w/o a Hitler leaderhead. I believe the image used was their German "Frederick" (who appeared to be rather than Barbarossa or Frederick the Great, the less well known Holy Roman Emperor Frederick II).

[binTravkin]

Damn, I thought civs are about 'cultures' not organizations like HRE.

Why not have Hansa, USSR, EU and other stuff like that in?

Yes, and Latvia deserves a civ too!

[Robert]

Originally posted by Alexander I You can't even sing the old lyrics to the National Anthem (Deutschland Ueber Alles!) in public.

According to my German co-worker, the "Deutschland uber alles" verse of the anthem is surely not forbidden or taboo, eventhough it's not been sung as often anymore.

The meaning of that verse is not "Germany above all nations on the world" but "Germany, the country, above the states of the country"
It dates from a period in which the Nation Germany was being formed, and people were called upon to place the entire nation above their state.

[Shrapnel12]

I hate to sound like I'm arguing for including Hitler in Civ. I know it's not going to happen and I don't care. I completely understand and agree with the hatred attributed to the man, but I'm bothered by the efforts to act as if he didn't exist. I'll leave it at that as it sounds like you've all heard it before.

[binTravkin]

I completely understand and agree with the hatred attributed to the man, but I'm bothered by the efforts to act as if he didn't exist.

This is a widespread fault to try to forget the mistakes we've made.
In Germany they've (with 'they' I mean common folks) already forgotten so much of it that another fuerer might soon become a theoretical possibility again.

Similarly, yet differently, in Russia noone seems to remember GULAG while remembering that "father" Stalin "saved" Russia.
Well, they at least remember him..

[AEdwild]

<>

Au contraire... I think the HRE is a highly creative use of historical political entities! I'd call their decision bold, and far from braindead.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by CyberShy
According to my German co-worker, the "Deutschland uber alles" verse of the anthem is surely not forbidden or taboo, eventhough it's not been sung as often anymore.

The meaning of that verse is not "Germany above all nations on the world" but "Germany, the country, above the states of the country"
It dates from a period in which the Nation Germany was being formed, and people were called upon to place the entire nation above their state.

The verse sings of Germany's boundaries from the Meuse (Maas) River to the Memelgebeiet. Those are all-inclusive boundaries from Belgium all the way to Russia and the Baltic states! That may have been true of the HRE at one point, but modern Germany doesn't have such lofty imperialist aspirations.

[Locutus]

That's what they want you to think

[Niall Becc]

Adding what is in essence a duplicate Germany with a chronologically impossible leader (the HRE didn't exist in Charlemagne's time) is really bad. And I'm especially sad that another civ has lost its place to this.

However, Rhys & Fall will turn Charlemagne into Otto the Great, an extra leader for the Germans. That would be wonderful if firaxis would do that. Can someone tell me how I could do that for the normal game, as well as adding the UU and UB to the Germans as either flavour or alternatives?

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Niall Becc
And I'm especially sad that another civ has lost its place to this.

It hasn't. The defining factor is the number of leaderheads, civs are very easily added or removed, unlike leaderheads they take few resources to create. And if Charlemagne hadn't been leader of the HRE he'd probably have been leader of the French and/or German, so then BtS would simply have had new 9 civs and 7 new leaders rather than 10 and 6 respectively.

However, Rhys & Fall will turn Charlemagne into Otto the Great, an extra leader for the Germans. That would be wonderful if firaxis would do that. Can someone tell me how I could do that for the normal game, as well as adding the UU and UB to the Germans as either flavour or alternatives?

Move the LEADER_CHARLEMAGNE entry from the HRE to Germany in CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml and disable the HRE by setting bPlayable and bAIPlayable to 0. Copy the BUILDING_RATHAUS and UNIT_LANDSKNECHT to the German section as well to give them the HRE UB/UU.

[Kuciwalker]

It hasn't. The defining factor is the number of leaderheads, civs are very easily added or removed, unlike leaderheads they take few resources to create. And if Charlemagne hadn't been leader of the HRE he'd probably have been leader of the French and/or German, so then BtS would simply have had new 9 civs and 7 new leaders rather than 10 and 6 respectively.

Check your math

[lockstep]

Originally posted by Locutus
Move the LEADER_CHARLEMAGNE entry from the HRE to Germany in CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml and disable the HRE by setting bPlayable and bAIPlayable to 0. Copy the BUILDING_RATHAUS and UNIT_LANDSKNECHT to the German section as well to give them the HRE UB/UU.

Thanks again, and can you also tell what additional steps are needed to rename Charlemagne to Otto the Great?