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Beyond the Sword: A Betrayal of Soren's Vision?

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  • Beyond the Sword: A Betrayal of Soren's Vision?

    When reading the previews for Beyond the Sword I get a sense of both excitement and apprehension. While many of the proposed changes for Beyond the Sword are very ambitious, it is clear to me that most of them would never have occured on Soren's watch. I would even go so far as to say that in some ways BTS is a betrayal of Soren's original vision of a simpler, more streamlined, more newb friendly game of Civ. Let's consider some of the announced changes.

    -More Units like anti-tank, curaisser, Privateers,etc: One of Soren's big goals for Civ IV was to remove unnecessary units like the paratooper. Now in BTS, they are being added right back in. This is a step in the wrong direction in my opinion.

    -More Techs/Expanded Space Race:One thing that Soren said about Civ III was that it was about 100 turns too long, and one problem he wanted to avoid was dragging the game out when it was clear that a victor had been decided. In BTS, there are new techs being added to the modern era and a space race that is not won until a spaceship actually lands in Alpha Centauri (as opposed to merely being launched). Most players would agree that a game is already decided by the time the modern age is reached a majority of the time. All this does is drag the game out and is completely unnecessary

    -Corporations: These sounded kind of interesting at first, being new religions of sorts for modern times and they give great merchants an interesting new use by being able to found Corporate Headquarters. They also fit in great with economic civics, with mercantilism and state property having varying levels of restrictions on corporations, while free market lets them run rampant.

    However, their current implementation breaks the game by letting Civs do a complete end-run around the game's resource model. Previously, a source of tension in the modern age was the scarcity of key resources like oil and aluminium. Now with corporations, if you lack oil, you can simply use the Standard Ethanol Corp. to convert rice, sugar, or corn to oil! Need Aluminum? Use Aluminum Inc to create it from coal. All strategies of resource denial are right out the window. This may well be the most egregious of the changes in the game. Soren designed the resource model a very specific way and corporations allow players to completely bypass it.

    Espionage: Beyond the historical absurdity that the new espionage slider presents (when has a country dedicated 10-20% of it's national budget to espionage?!), it adds an unnecessary level of complexity to the game. One thing Soren has said he wanted to do was avoid was the overpowered spies from Civ II. While I don't think things will reach that level in BtS, I think it will put a larger emphasis on espionage than Soren would have done.

    New Wonders: This is more debatable, but five new wonders with most of them showing up in the early game is not a good call in my opinion. The only wonder whose effect has been revealed was the Statue of Zeus which adds more war weariness to the game. I don't believe that more war weariness is something the game needs.

    Any Civ with Any Leader: While this sounds like it could be fun on occasion, a lot of the game's strategic complexity revolved around the strengths and weaknesses and amount of synergy that existed between different Civ's various leaders, UUs and UBs taken as a whole. I have a feeling this can lead to players only combining the best leaders with the best UUs and takes away a lot of the subtle balance that existed in the previous incarnations of the game. I certainly hope that this is not an option that is enabled by default.

    Native Americans: While not a true betrayal of Soren's vision, it is just a horrible name and I highly doubt that Soren would have let such a bad idea gain any traction.

    There are some who might recall that I was one of the most enthusiastic and optimistic posters regarding the Warlords expansion (which I still feel was an excellent expansion). This one reminds me all too much of a another certain expansion that notoriously focused on adding as many new "toys" as possible, at the expense of game balance, namely Civ III: Conquests. I am not totally pessimistic on this expansion though. There are a lot of features that do sound really cool like the new civs/leaders, actual trade routes, civil wars, and so on. If things are fine-tuned to the point that everything is implemented extremely well and throughly balanced, the sheer amount of new content could create a true Civ 4.5, if not though, it could be remembered as Civ's greatest misstep as an expansion.
    Last edited by monkspider; May 25, 2007, 00:22.
    http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

  • #2
    Good post. I won't answer most of your points because I can't really do so without going into too much detail, but I'd love to after BtS is out.

    Certainly, BtS is not designed by Soren. He would probably have done some things differently - but I don't think it's a betrayal of Soren's vision in any way. The main thing Soren provided was a more streamlined version of Civ. More intuitive, more consistent, while maintaining strategic depth (much more of it compared to Civ3, in fact). BtS is really just an evolution of that. It adds some stuff here and there, fixes stuff elsewhere - it doesn't betray the core Civ4 design in any way.

    Huge boosts to warmongering would be betraying Civ4's design. Introducing complicated systems that the AI has no chance of understanding, such as a SMAC unit workshop, would be betraying Civ4's design. Not BtS features.

    Previously, a source of tension in the modern resources was the scarcity of key resources like oil and aluminium. Now with corporations, if you lack oil, you can simply use the Standard Ethanol Corp. to convert rice, sugar, or corn to oil! Need Aluminum? Use Aluminum Inc to create it from coal. All strategies of resource denial are right out the window.


    It's not that simple. I've never found the resources to be scarce... but at any rate, you need a Great Person to found a corporation. And, of course, you need no one else to found it first. Founding corporations isn't as easy as snapping your fingers - whereas you seem to be assuming that you can do it whenever you want.

    Any Civ with Any Leader


    It's an option. One with arguable balance, but it's not the first one. Options exist in Civ4 precisely to provide some non-standard ways of playing the game, that may not be balanced. OCC isn't balanced, it's strongly against the human. Permanent Alliances aren't balanced. Leaving only Conquest and Domination victories on isn't balanced. These are options.

    Very good thoughtful post here however
    Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
    Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
    I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man

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    • #3
      Thanks for the well written reply Solver, I would love for you to an offer an in depth review of Beyond the Sword after it is released like you did with Warlords. I think your Warlords review was probably the best one on the internet.

      Just knowing that you are still on the project definitely does raise my expectations of the BtS team's ability to balance all of these new changes. So from what you wrote it sounds like you can at least confirm that any leader with any civ isn't an option that will be enabled by default?
      http://monkspider.blogspot.com/

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      • #4
        I will certainly be reviewing BtS as well. What do you think I'm on this site for?

        And no, as it's been mentioned in some other thread, "any leader" is a non-default option. So it's basically an extra variant of play.
        Solver, WePlayCiv Co-Administrator
        Contact: solver-at-weplayciv-dot-com
        I can kill you whenever I please... but not today. - The Cigarette Smoking Man

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        • #5
          -More Techs/Expanded Space Race:One thing that Soren said about Civ III was that it was about 100 turns too long, and one problem he wanted to avoid was dragging the game out when it was clear that a victor had been decided. In BTS, there are new techs being added to the modern era and a space race that is not won until a spaceship actually lands in Alpha Centauri (as opposed to merely being launched). Most players would agree that a game is already decided by the time the modern age is reached a majority of the time. All this does is drag the game out and is completely unnecessary


          The space race bit actually adds tension IMO. It means that the game isn't decided the moment you launch the spaceship (assuming it's possible to destroy by taking the opponent's capital or something like in Civ 2).

          -Corporations: These sounded kind of interesting at first, being new religions of sorts for modern times and they give great merchants an interesting new use by being able to found Corporate Headquarters. They also fit in great with economic civics, with mercantilism and state property having varying levels of restrictions on corporations, while free market lets them run rampant.

          However, their current implementation breaks the game by letting Civs do a complete end-run around the game's resource model. Previously, a source of tension in the modernage was the scarcity of key resources like oil and aluminium. Now with corporations, if you lack oil, you can simply use the Standard Ethanol Corp. to convert rice, sugar, or corn to oil! Need Aluminum? Use Aluminum Inc to create it from coal. All strategies of resource denial are right out the window. This may well be the most egregious of the changes in the game. Soren designed the resource model a very specific way and corporations allow players to completely bypass it.


          It seems to me to require rather a great deal of effort to do that, though, which preserves balance.

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          • #6
            At first I expected this thread to be a run of the mill 8itch fest about what BTS should have been, but after reading your arguements Monk I tend to agree with most of them.

            We will have to wait and see how BTS actually handles these things. It may not be what we think.

            All I have to say is the Mayans better be in this one!


            PS: Your avatar rocks Spider.

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            • #7
              Locutus has said that BTS was being devolped at least since August of last year. Soren left faraxis in April. Wouldn't that mean Soren was involved in much of the devolpment?
              USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!
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              • #8
                Monkspider
                ~ If Tehben spits eggs at you, jump on them and throw them back. ~ Eventis ~ Eventis Dungeons & Dragons 6th Age Campaign: Chapter 1, Chapter 2, Chapter 3, Chapter 4: (Unspeakable) Horror on the Hill ~

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Pinchak
                  All I have to say is the Mayans better be in this one!
                  Check Solver's fact sheet and IGN's screenshot section.
                  The Apolytoner formerly known as Alexander01
                  "God has given no greater spur to victory than contempt of death." - Hannibal Barca, c. 218 B.C.
                  "We can legislate until doomsday but that will not make men righteous." - George Albert Smith, A.D. 1949
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                  • #10
                    -More Units
                    I don't think these were necessary either, but anti tank and cuirassier have apparently been added to add counter to modern tank rushes and to prevent a dominant cavalry strategy, so I think they are more fixes to existing balance issues than a betrayal. Can't say the same about paratroopers. This will indeed make a lot of modern infantry units to cope with.

                    -More Techs/Expanded Space Race (...) Most players would agree that a game is already decided by the time the modern age is reached a majority of the time. All this does is drag the game out and is completely unnecessary
                    I disagree. Civ (1) and Civ 2 space races were somewhere between a billion and an infinity times more thrilling than the current implementation. I remember games where I'd add components to my spaceship in order to beat Mao to AC by a few months when his ship was already flying. The current spaceship victory is decided too early because it requires almost all techs to be researched, so the best researcher wins if they start on the project early. I hope BtS fixes that.

                    -Corporations:
                    You may be right, but in my experience, the game is currently quite unbalanced. On small to medium maps, resources tend to be scarce, while on bigger maps, there's oil about everywhere (with the default resources map scripts). I tend to dislike strategic resources in the first place anyway (those required for units) because you may die in the modern era out of bad luck more than anything else if you lack oil.

                    Espionage: Beyond the historical absurdity that the new espionage slider presents (when has a country dedicated 10-20% of it's national budget to espionage?!), it adds an unnecessary level of complexity to the game.
                    What about 100% of national budget to research? The current spying model is almost useless, almost anything would be better. Using a slider can make things more streamlined than units, but then there are great spies so I don't know what it'll look like.

                    New Wonders: (...) I don't believe that more war weariness is something the game needs.
                    Agreed.

                    Any Civ with Any Leader:
                    I won't play with that option, so I don't mind.
                    Clash of Civilization team member
                    (a civ-like game whose goal is low micromanagement and good AI)
                    web site http://clash.apolyton.net/frame/index.shtml and forum here on apolyton)

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                    • #11
                      The OP is a good post, given the fact that many/most BtS details aren't available to the author.
                      But I think that the lack of those details make it impossible to really judge of BtS is a betrayal to Soren's vision.

                      I think it's not.
                      I can easily see how it could be a betrayal, but one needs more info to conclude that.

                      If Soren didn't want to drag the game on after a winner had been decided already, then making the game longer is a wrong path indeed.
                      But if new features make the late game more interesting, then it's no problem if the game lasts longer.

                      The problem was not the long end game, but the already decided end game. If the last one can be fixed, then the 'solution' (shorter / less complicated end game) isn't needed anymore.
                      Formerly known as "CyberShy"
                      Carpe Diem tamen Memento Mori

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                      • #12
                        Re: Beyond the Sword: A Betrayal of Soren's Vision?

                        Originally posted by monkspider

                        -Corporations: These sounded kind of interesting at first, being new religions of sorts for modern times and they give great merchants an interesting new use by being able to found Corporate Headquarters. They also fit in great with economic civics, with mercantilism and state property having varying levels of restrictions on corporations, while free market lets them run rampant.

                        However, their current implementation breaks the game by letting Civs do a complete end-run around the game's resource model. Previously, a source of tension in the modern age was the scarcity of key resources like oil and aluminium. Now with corporations, if you lack oil, you can simply use the Standard Ethanol Corp. to convert rice, sugar, or corn to oil! Need Aluminum? Use Aluminum Inc to create it from coal. All strategies of resource denial are right out the window. This may well be the most egregious of the changes in the game. Soren designed the resource model a very specific way and corporations allow players to completely bypass it.
                        1. Corporations probably won’t be "that" easy to get or spread.
                        2. They encourage resource hoarding
                        Now getting that second or third oil actually pays off, since the more of a resource you have the greater the commerce/production/food boost to your cities. This will lead to late game "greed wars" or should I say Ira..ehh... corporate wars.

                        Overall that part doesn’t sound half-bad.
                        I'm not buying BtS until Firaxis impliments the "contiguous cultural border negates colony tax" concept.

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                        • #13
                          Solver, you do understand that you are possibly the most biased poster here with regards to BtS? As a tester, you can't post anything about the game that isn't already public knowledge. If you posted anything negative, then you're liable to get sued by Firaxis, so you're unlikely to do that and so only post positive items about the game. To be honest I doubt anybody can reply to this thread at all without saying this:

                          If you haven't played Beyond the Sword, then you don;t know what has changed, how it has changed, and how new stuff is implemented. Drawing conclusions right now isn't a productive thing to do, especially with the reviews that are almost always used as "propaganda" to increase the hype so the game seels more.

                          So I wouldn't worry about the game yet. Get it when it comes out and play it. Or wait for a multitude of reviews to be published so you can get a more considered opinion. But making an opinion now with such little data and biased coverage isn't wise.
                          You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

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                          • #14
                            I agree with most that has been said. Regardless, great post and well thought out. Other thoughts:

                            -- No-one has mentioned things such as Modern era game starts.

                            -- There are features not mentioned (most importantly the UN) that are currently game breakers (IMO) and I'm very excited to see how they fix it and what they add.

                            -- I actually like being denied oil etc. and having to make do (uranium for subs, etc.) I call that "interesting".

                            Wodan

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Krill
                              Solver, you do understand that you are possibly the most biased poster here with regards to BtS? As a tester, you can't post anything about the game that isn't already public knowledge. If you posted anything negative, then you're liable to get sued by Firaxis, so you're unlikely to do that and so only post positive items about the game. To be honest I doubt anybody can reply to this thread at all without saying this:

                              If you haven't played Beyond the Sword, then you don;t know what has changed, how it has changed, and how new stuff is implemented. Drawing conclusions right now isn't a productive thing to do, especially with the reviews that are almost always used as "propaganda" to increase the hype so the game seels more.

                              So I wouldn't worry about the game yet. Get it when it comes out and play it. Or wait for a multitude of reviews to be published so you can get a more considered opinion. But making an opinion now with such little data and biased coverage isn't wise.
                              Since I don't believe that Solver gets money from Firaxis, then a lot of your post isn't being fair. Beta testers are under NDA, that much is true, and they should not post negative comments as well. BUT, Solver would not post a positive comment either if he didn't like what he was seeing. Posting negative comments would be bad, but posting "wait and see" comments imply that he is generally satisfied with what he is seeing. If he didn't post at all, that would say more about the negatives and less about the positives.

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