Imagine no religion...

[mijae]

thanks for the replies! It would of course be simpler by just starting with all the religious techs or modding the game or something, but figuring out how to make it happen in a normal game is part of the fun for me. I like playing Civ with an RP perspective sometimes, and it seems like an interesting challenge to try a reversal of the missionary idea.

Instead of seeing if you can spread your religion all over and convert everyone, or seeing if you can get all the religions you can in your liberal society, see if you can not only get by with no religion yourself but keep everyone else from having it too! No religion for you!

Think about it, what was the only estabalishment to educate people in the middle ages? The Church. When I read that I see a direct insult to anyone of any religon anywhere. It seems like you are saying that religon makes you backwards. The greatest minds of the middle ages were monks. The first European to discovery gunpowder was a monk. Sir Isaac Newton was a minister. The first universities were built by the church.

Yes, religion had a similar lock on art around the middle ages, with anyone getting funding for serious work most likely getting it from the church. Now that the secular world can hold its own though, in America especially religion's a big factor in holding back research, most notably stem cells.

I just wish it wasn't so all-encompassing in this game, I'm a big builder/culturemonger and it seems like almost every building and wonder I want is tied into religion somehow. ...but maybe getting more into the roleplay of it would make it fun again. How about the more religions and religious buildings you have in your civ, the higher risk you have of them burning your Great Scientists at the stake?

[Provost Harrison]

People have noted in the style of play that despite being an atheist, I seem to be a bit of a religious nut in terms of gameplay. I suspect it is because I don't believe in any religion I can see it for what it is, a means to manipulate the populace, which is exactly what it is doing in civ4! I do like the cash and the culture it brings in.

And as for religion increasing science, I suppose it is true to an extent (although it is hard to say whether these advances would have happened regardless) - for example Gregor Mendel, the discoverer of heredity - he was a monk. Besides those early science bonuses from religion are lost in the latter age anyway - monasteries only give their bonus until scientific method, and the University of Sankore is obsoleted by computers (IIRC).

[Nubclear]

State atheism should be an option.
But Sid didn't consider atheism influential enough on world history to include it

[CarnalCanaan]

Oddly, atheism shares something in common with another world-view: the Sun Cult. Both have made frequent reappearances throughout history and both have been kiboshed by history.

Atheism seems to be something primordial in humanity. Afterall, we have a hard time believing what we do not see. That's why most gods were depicted anthropomorphically. It's like an itch at the small of our back we just can't quite reach.

Perhaps it works something like this: human beings since time immemorial have been aware of two things, 1) the sun is the essence of life on Earth, if it ceases to exist, so will we, and 2) whatever intelligence exists beyond our own, it is utterly unintelligible to us. These two realities, however, seem untenable. We literally sap our whole selves trying to sustain the sun (certainly, Mayan atheists must have seen that such a system was impossible). However, something in us demands order where there is chaos. Norse mythology was a fatalistic call to order above all else. This seems reasonable in a dangerous, unpredictable world.

Religion seems to offer the middle path between these two extremes. The gods (later, a Universal God) do offer order and are independent of us. They (He) may demand reverance, tribute, or sacrifice, but not sustinance.

Religion is not the opiate of the masses, but it is the security blanket in a cold, dark, predatory world.

Have we, though, cast the light of Reason so far into the world that we no longer fear it? Would that not make us gods?

[OzzyKP]

Originally posted by Tacc
State atheism should be an option.
But Sid didn't consider atheism influential enough on world history to include it

A. Sid was right, atheism hasn't been influential enough to include.
B. You still have an atheism mechanism in the game. Just make your state religion be "No religion" and pick theology as your religious civic. No religion will be able to spread in your cities.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by OzzyKP



A. Sid was right, atheism hasn't been influential enough to include.

Forgetting the effect that rationalism (and thus atheism) have had on things like philosophy or whatnot....Several rather prominent players on the world stage have claimed state atheism in recent history.

Unless, of course, communism also hasn't been influential enough...

[Blake]

I'm atheist but I have far too much affinity with the Buddhism/Tao line to dislike the religious system - and poly/monotheism has been a large part of human history.

I think that the Monasteries providing a science boost is entirely reasonable - one can learn A LOT from Buddhism, maybe or maybe not in the realm of pure knowledge, but when it comes to honing the mind. And I KNOW that I'd be a better person if I were a "better Buddhist" - lets just say that it helps me realize just how little I really know .

I tend to think that Religion in very general is great really (just not so much Theism...), but there's just been a few (rather large and rotten) bad apples... my problem with Theism - in general - is it becomes "The Gods tell us to do this" rather than focusing on personal enlightenment and wisdom. There's no such thing as good dogma.

Oh and I find this thread utterly distasteful . I'm pretty sure that "Imagine no religion" does not mean genocide t.t, it's so distasteful it's quite good .

[allybhoy]

A Catholic Priest first proposed the big bang theory funnily enough

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre

[Arrian]

Heh. I'm an agnostic leaning atheist and I always make religion a key part of my CIV gameplay. I think it's kinda like Provost Harrison said - I look at religion as just another tool to use in the game. I rather think that's true of the majority of religious folks who play the game too.

Anyway, as snoopy said, there are mods for this. You can play w/o the religion mechanic, or you can play with it, but renamed to other stuff (didn't somebody make the religions into sports teams? Good idea, that).

-Arrian

[Virdrago]

Originally posted by joncnunn
Throwing in my two cents:

1. The "Free Religion" religous civic choice that boosts science by 10% also locks the civ to "No State Religion"

2. Monstaries only boost reserach by 10% each and only require that a religion(s) be present, not that it be the state religion. More over, they expire with discovery of scentific method (along with the Great Library wonder). This results in no new monstaries can be built post Sci Method and also that the existing ones can now only add culture and allow missonaries.

Incidentally, if you have two monasteries (or more) in your major cities, you lose 20% science because of Scientific Method, and even Free Religion doesn't imediately dig you out of that. Ahhh, Cost Benefit Analysis...

[Provost Harrison]

Actually I've thought that monasteries should be allowed post scientific method, just without the science bonus - otherwise it puts the later religions at a bit of a disadvantage as they have less time to have a base of monasteries for creating missionaries and thus they will lose the missionary output game as well as coming late and not spreading as far.

[DrSpike]

Originally posted by Virdrago


Incidentally, if you have two monasteries (or more) in your major cities, you lose 20% science because of Scientific Method, and even Free Religion doesn't imediately dig you out of that. Ahhh, Cost Benefit Analysis...

It's not 20% science - it's 20% of base commerce + specialist beakers, which is a lot less.

The same with FR of course, but FM affects base commerce, and rep effectively does too, and they are coming onstream (with observatories) as monasteries obselete.

It's fine overall because it creates strategic choice - work within the old framework as long as poss, or modernise and be first to Physics etc, probably get labs first too.

[joncnunn]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
People have noted in the style of play that despite being an atheist, I seem to be a bit of a religious nut in terms of gameplay. I suspect it is because I don't believe in any religion I can see it for what it is, a means to manipulate the populace, which is exactly what it is doing in civ4! I do like the cash and the culture it brings in.

And as for religion increasing science, I suppose it is true to an extent (although it is hard to say whether these advances would have happened regardless) - for example Gregor Mendel, the discoverer of heredity - he was a monk. Besides those early science bonuses from religion are lost in the latter age anyway - monasteries only give their bonus until scientific method, and the University of Sankore is obsoleted by computers (IIRC).

Actualy since University of Sankore only applies to the religious buildings belonging to your state religion, in actual practice it expires as soon as you switch to Free Religion. (Also, monstaries no longer count as a religious building for this wonder [or the similar gold one] with Scientific Method)

[joncnunn]

Yes, and this is exactly why in my own games Scientific Method is a very low priority for me.

Originally posted by Virdrago

Incidentally, if you have two monasteries (or more) in your major cities, you lose 20% science because of Scientific Method, and even Free Religion doesn't imediately dig you out of that. Ahhh, Cost Benefit Analysis...

[joncnunn]

I'm positive you could win Civ IV without founding a single religion. One such approach is to play a civ with an early UU very good at taking cites; say the Romans, and ignore religious techs in favor of resource techs and then building your UU and taking the religous holy cities from others.