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Tech trading is / is not a bore (delete as appropriate)

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  • Here is the 636AD save.



    I was surprised how close my score was to Blake's - OK, I know about the limitations of the score, but none the less I was surprised.
    Note that score means nearly nothing - for example each tech provides basically the same amount of score regardless of cost. You can easily raise your score by trading for techs, especially junk techs, but this kind of rampant trading causes "We fear you are becoming too advanced" (it's based on # techs traded not their beaker count), by avoiding tech trading as much as possible (in favor of extortion and getting gold for your techs then doing self research) you can delay seeing "WFYABTA" for much, much longer.

    Another way that score is limited is that skilled players will tend to whip more which lowers population which lowers score - yet the acts of whipping were certainly not harmful - a granary is far more useful than the 2 pop killed to get it - yet the 2 pop registers on score but the granary doesn't. And returning to the cheap tech things - if you research all the cheap techs - even fi you don't need them, you'll have a high score! Yet it's usually stronger to pursue a depth-first research strategy. Often a high score is really an inflated score and indicative that you're actually doing something wrong! In MP games I am quite disturbed if early on I am high in score without a good reason (ie hut tech pop) partly because it means others must be playing equally efficiently...

    When you want to assess the strength of a position there's a few demographics which are very important:
    1) Food. Food is an excellent indication of how much population you have and how much stuff you can produce (by working mines or whipping), being high food is very good.
    2) Land Area. This indicates your potential for growth without conquering, even if you're in a "bad" position NOW, if you have the largest land area you'll usually be able to make a comeback in all other fields.

    Another key difference is that Blake's tech research is much more closely aligned to his play strategy than mine. I was frequently trying to play a builder style evolved at noble level in circumstances that didn't suit it.
    Astute observation. Um is it the engineering quote about perfection being taking away everything which isn't needed? That's how a good research strategy works - if you don't need something - don't get it! You can see I do that by totally ignoring the religious line because I didn't need it to complete my objectives - which was conquer territory and improve my economy.

    Another difference that may or may not be significant is that I failed to discover the iron that he is exploiting. I'm not sure whether this made much difference in practice.
    Um yeah failure to scout and make bold moves to claim critical city sites definitely costs you! And Iron is simply the best for Rome - silly little units like Horse Archers just don't compare with the mighty Praetorian. In terms of bang-for-buck Praets are probably the best unit in the game, leveraging this advantage quickly puts you in a strong position.

    I really can't stress scouting enough - I spent a long time not scouting as much as I should, now I tend to spam out as many as half a dozen warriors (depending on map size) and send them out scouting, later they come in useful as fogbusters and stuff. You do need to send out a lot of scouting units because many get eaten. The thing about scouting is - if scouting allows you to settle an uber site like my ricies site, or the Pigs/Iron site, then it definitely more than pays for the scout unit because the city will be so much more productive than a lesser city would be... (also accounting for things like happy resources boosting the empires production).

    Comment


    • Thanks for a great opportunity to learn. I am trying to follow Blake's opening to the T but Mansa is settling the Ricies location at the same time that I am pumping out my first settler to go off an settle the BS plot.

      Blake, did you do anything special to prevent Mansa from getting to the rice plot. I have been parking a warrior on the rice and it is not having any effect.

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      • One thing that is quite revealing about Blake’s strategy is that it looks very easy but is harder to achieve unless you understand precisely what is being done. Settling on sugar is not that controversial for many people though doing the same with rice or farming bananas are not so obvious choices yet have clear benefits.

        In the case of Rice, the improvement of +1f is not insignificant and settling in the tile adjacent also gives forest to chop – which will partly offset the health lost through the lack of fresh water. But there are two clear advantages of that site.

        1) The rice tile gives 3f in the city immediately. With iron working and agriculture it could produce 5f but this is a long way off and it’s arguable that the additional food at the beginning may even be worth more.
        2) You get to work another 3f tile on the first border expansion (bananas). At this stage the alternative city would have been running low on surplus food. By contrast, if we allow for the farming of the banana tile, the city has +5 so at least will find it quite easy to whip in buildings and units
        3) I’m speculating here but it’s possible that cities would be experiences health problems without the immediate boost of +1/+2 health from the rice.

        What the story here demonstrates is of a clear objective in mind with all of the cities and what they are for. As the situation becomes more complicated with neighbouring civs starting to move into this idyllic jungle life, the larger strategic decisions come to play while Caesar trump-card (his uber-strength Praets) was always seen as the key ingredient to starting the conquests.

        From here on in, domination should be little problem. At this stage in the game, Blake has a very effective empire. There’s a very nice mix of resources there and food looks plentiful. The tech trading has pretty effectively brought the Romans up to trade parity and the large profitable empire should ensure that further advances can start to build up a tech lead – at which point the trading will start to become less profitable

        A fine demonstration Blake

        Comment


        • something to note is that with my first 3 cities - Rome, Bananas and ricies, I was exceptionally greedy - taking not only the +1f in the city tile but also claiming a maximum number of resources for improvement.

          This strategy works exceptionally well for Creative leaders - getting a large number of resources working for you as quickly as possible means you have a VERY strong economy for pumping out - well - anything. "Greedy settling" is something I tend to strongly recommend for creative because you can bootstrap that early productivity into all sorts of interesting advantages - really it kickstarts the exponential growth of your empire. For non-creative leaders you're often best off founding cities adjacent to one or two good resources, this limits their longer term potential somewhat but you can at least get some resources being worked asap. Creative leaders have no such compromise - you can take it all and get very productive very quickly.

          Creative is probably the most powerful trait, if you get some good "Greedy" city sites.

          Chopper, to answer the question of what I did to get Ricies - well I did whip the second settler out. I tend to pretty much always whip settlers out, even if it might cause some unhappiness in the whipee city - the NEW city wont have any of that anger so you come out ahead. And if it's a city which claims a happy resource then you recover that unhappiness anyway.

          On Marathon whipping an early settler gets it out something like 10-15 turns faster and that can definitely help claim a city site.

          I don't know if it was the whipping - I'm also just pretty good at growing cities in general and stuff - I mean there is micro you can do to get everything done quicker, mostly it comes down to focusing on food for growth until you hit the happy cap or run out of improved tiles - for Rome I used a tile working order of Gems, Corn, Mine, Mine - I stalled growth at size 4 to pump out settlers and let the workers busy themselves building roads and stuff, rather than improving a 5th tile for Rome.

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          • Gems (2/1/6) ahead of Corn (6/0/0)? I would have thought you would have set the priority would have been the other way round.

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            • Originally posted by Blake
              I started out with worker first to mine the gems asap before jungle spreads over them.

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              • I tried it for a bit but the marathon game was just too much for me. It takes so long to make anything that the civs that start with scouts have an even bigger advantage, (unless they get killed of course) The element of luck is multiplied in these games. A few huts make a bigger difference then in a normal game.
                It was interesting and I obviously don't have Blake's skill but I think I'm going to stick with more normal games.
                It's almost as if all his overconfident, absolutist assertions were spoonfed to him by a trusted website or subreddit. Sheeple
                RIP Tony Bogey & Baron O

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Exrook
                  I saw that and can understand the reason for improving the gems first. What I was questioning was placing gems ahead of corn when working tiles.

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                  • Because the gems were improved and corn wasn't .

                    It took until size 2 for the corn to be improved (the corn was farmed the same turn the city grew to size 2), after that I never went below size 2.

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                    • That's quite reasonable

                      But were you working the gems tile ahead of corn when neither were improved?

                      On a slight tangent – and a somewhat hypothetical case - if the gems were not at any immediate risk of being swallowed by jungle, which should be improved first. My own view is that the corn improvement is theoretically the more efficient use of the worker. It turns out to be about 33% more efficient although most of this is for the simple reason that the gems take an extra turn to reach from the city.

                      I used the 1f=1.8h=2.5g in these calculations

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                      • I worked the corn tile until the gems were mined.

                        In generally corn (5-0-0) would probably be better to improve than Gems (2-1-6 i think) - although the Gems is a very good tile... it would be clearcut IF there was more potential for the new population - GIVEN that it's only going to be working a forest tile I think the Gems might actually be better - depending on how useful the research is and the doubled hammers are (it'd get another warrior out quite a bit earlier)... it certainly didn't feel like a move which was harmful in any way whatsoever (even if the motivation was to avoid jungle spread).

                        I think in this case Grassland Gems first was the right move - although if the Corn was fresh water it'd definitely beat out the gems.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by mdrago
                          I always play Marathon (Epic before Warlods) / Huge / Continents / 17 rivals / Conquest || Domination.
                          I've been trying for six months, but i cant beat the AI in emperor or above... no matter what i do, by the time of gunpower I'm behind in tech.

                          Honestly, I dont think it's a problem with my gameplay... I play Civ2 and Civ3 with relative success. The big difference here in Civ4 it's that you cannot trade techs at all.

                          Some people in this post says you can always get at leats gold for your new researched tech, and tough, there is a "winning" situation in that... sorry to differ, but that not trading, that DAMAGE CONTROL.

                          It's a lie that your repupation with another civ will get you a "worthy" tech for free. In emperor or above you rep. means nothing... the AI wont trade if not for 3x the value for the item you are asiking for.

                          Don't believe me? Start a new game in Emperor, make some contacts and try to exchange "1 gold coin" for "10 gold coins"... simply as it;s sound you will get a "is that your better offer?" from the AIs... IT'S STUPID!!!... again, there is no posible trading in that conditions.

                          And your rep. will make no difference at all, because the AI is playing in "noble" difficulty level, and you are playing in emepror... the "multipliers" involved create a gap way to big!

                          I dont turn off "tech tradinf" simply because i consider it cheating (dispite it's a legal game fauture to turn it off)... the difference is HUGE!

                          I will pay to see someone finishing the game in Emperor with the same settings I play and Tech Trading ON.
                          I am very pleased that the result of this embarassing post was an excellent strategy discussion. Nice work, Blake.

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                          • I’ve not found any problems with tech trading on my current emperor game. I needed it to get a few basic techs swapping at the lower levels and getting Meditation and a large cash chest as a gift. When it came to some later techs, Alexander was quite happy to exchange (Calendar for Horseback +70g, Metal Casting for Construction+80g). Both within the 80-90% range makes decent sense given that I new our other co-religionist Brennus had both of the techs anyway.

                            Now I’m at the stage of exploring the wider world I’ll soon find out if the heathen tribes will be happy to trade too.

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                            • Blake (or others), I am starting a new Prince game and I want to trade better, using the lessons learned here. Can you summarize the advantages of having Alphabet and what you could with that advantage? It also seems that Currency plays into it as well but playing aggressively early on, how stay on the military lines while keeping your tech advantage over the AI?

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                              • The main advantage of Alphabet is that it lets you bully techs out of your victim. Currency has many advantages, just one of them is bullying gold out of your victims and/or selling tech for gold, another is marketplaces which are an excellent investment if your science% is less than 50%ish and/or if you need the happy, the final is +1 trade route which really does help.

                                Alphabet also lets you build Research which should not be underestimated, if you can't afford to invest in additional units/cities, then build Research can be very helpful to get to critical techs - like Currency and Metal Casting. You generally want to use it to get to techs that will let you start investing in infrastructure. Build Wealth is basically identical to Build Research since it lets you use a higher slider setting.

                                Something very important about tech trading is "We fear you are becoming too advanced" WFYABTA is caused by the NUMBER OF TECHS YOU RECEIVE IN TRADE, it is not based on the cost of the techs, or how many you trade to the AI, it's simply the number of techs you receive from AI's. So NEVER receive a tech like Meditation in trade, not even as a freebie, ideally don't ever receive anything cheaper than Currency. Instead trade techs for gold as much as possible, since selling tech for gold doesn't hit WFYABTA.
                                At higher difficulty levels know you'll hit WFYABTA regardless, there are two ways to override it - one is that Mansa Musa has a VERY high WFYABTA limit, he'll nearly always trade techs. The other way is that friendly relationships entirely overrides WFYABTA, so having friendly tech trade partners is a good thing.

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