Stalin in Civ?

[rah]

Agreed. Personally I'd have no objection to having Hitler in the game because it would be entertaining to kick his A**. There are many other leaders in the game that are in Hitler's class. I like kicking their A**es too.

[Generaldoktor]

Originally posted by Prussia
Oh boy... Not another "'If Stalin is in Civ, Hitler should be too!' No he shouldn't, you Nazi! And while you're at it, take out Mao Zedong!" topic.

When I saw this thread, I took time-out for the barf bag. I cannot agree with Prussia more.

Here it is sports fans, last spring's ridiculous debate, character assassination (of participants) and multi-rant on the subject of genocidal dictators in games:

Note: Solver wisely closed this thread after a point because of all the mutual insults, regional hatred and repetition it generated. Speaking of repetition, don't start this again! I'm sorry I was ever a part of it.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthrea...hreadid=150281

[Virdrago]

If you're still reading this, Hunter, I, like Will9, think Lenin would be better than Stalin as the third Russian leader.

Still, for nostalgia's sake, he's not a bad choice (man, I hated him in Civ 1). But where's my Volga Boat song?

[Prussia]

I just want to say that it is fine for everyone to have a calm, flame-less, cool discussion about their opinions on Hitler's right/wrong position in Civilization 4, but it is never going to happen.

Stalin did some horrible things (so did Catherine, so did Julius Caesar, so did Isabella, just to name a few), but he was a Russian figure. He is well known, and a crucial part of history. Firaxis put him in, that is that. There are plenty of ways to mod Stalin out, or to mod in Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo.

Any way you put it, there are some people who do not deserve to be recognized, because the things they did are disgraceful, evil, unforgivable, and unforgetable. The fact that the German people are stricken with so much embarrasement that they let this man rule their country only proves that he does not deserve any recognition or credit, exept for being a wicked tyrant and no less.

I have been to the holocaust memorials held in Berlin, they are very touching, and the German people mean everything they say sincerely. They are truly sad this man was born, and if his own country is ashamed of him, then he does not deserve to be in this game.

[Virdrago]

No better way to put it, Prussia. I agree.

[Nugog]

Originally posted by Prussia
I just want to say that it is fine for everyone to have a calm, flame-less, cool discussion about their opinions on Hitler's right/wrong position in Civilization 4, but it is never going to happen.

Stalin did some horrible things (so did Catherine, so did Julius Caesar, so did Isabella, just to name a few), but he was a Russian figure. He is well known, and a crucial part of history. Firaxis put him in, that is that. There are plenty of ways to mod Stalin out, or to mod in Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo.

Any way you put it, there are some people who do not deserve to be recognized, because the things they did are disgraceful, evil, unforgivable, and unforgetable. The fact that the German people are stricken with so much embarrasement that they let this man rule their country only proves that he does not deserve any recognition or credit, exept for being a wicked tyrant and no less.

I have been to the holocaust memorials held in Berlin, they are very touching, and the German people mean everything they say sincerely. They are truly sad this man was born, and if his own country is ashamed of him, then he does not deserve to be in this game.

So very true.

[Tattila the Hun]

I think Hitler needs to be recognized, as the murdering bastard he was. Civ needs to reflect the course of human history. Genocidal dictators are part of it, as are great artists and grand monuments. Civ4 isn't complete without the arguably worst thing humanity has produced. Nor would it be without the best, whatever that would be.

[rah]

Any way you put it, there are some people who do not deserve to be recognized, because the things they did are disgraceful, evil, unforgivable, and unforgetable. The fact that the German people are stricken with so much embarrasement that they let this man rule their country only proves that he does not deserve any recognition or credit, exept for being a wicked tyrant and no less.

So if the people had been proud of him, it would be ok to include him?

I'm sure that there are more than a few leaders that their subjects weren't proud of.

[Blaupanzer]

Can you say Montezuma? Most of his "subjects" were slaves, thousands of whom were sacrificed to Gods now almost unknown. Plus, he lost power to a handful of westerners and those same tribes revolting against the Aztecs.

Hitler was a paranoid loser in the end. He did not expand Germany nor benefit it in any meaningful way. Five years is a very short reign of power on the world stage, 13 years a short time in power in any case. Wildly, dangerously evil, he almost pulled off a major coup, but he failed. Even Napoleon (another ultimate loser), had some long-term positive effects on France and ruled longer than Hitler. The French are still proud of him, most of the time.

[Generaldoktor]

It's starting again.

[Prussia]

Originally posted by rah


So if the people had been proud of him, it would be ok to include him?

I'm sure that there are more than a few leaders that their subjects weren't proud of.

I didn't say that. Read my post carefully.

If they had been proud of him I STILL wouldn't have put him in the game.

[rah]

I did read it carefully and that was really the only distinction between the others you listed, so it seems to be the only valid reason you wanted him excluded for.
I know you think him more evil but I can't agree with that one.

I can understand in a PC world why he's not, but in terms of evil, there are many others that were probably jsut as bad but we don't have as much documentation about it. (well except for maybe stalin)

So it's a PC game and AMERICA IS IN and HITLER IS OUT.
The sacrifices we make for marketing. (I do doubt that many would have refused to buy the game if it had Hitler in it, but some places may have banned it)

[Prussia]

I don't know what you consider "evil," and I'm not going to get started with you about that definition.

The point is, that's not the only reason he is not in the game. Sure, there were worse people, but people still play Warlords even though they were clearly informed of Stalin's presence. Doesn't that tell you something?

The fact is that while he played a significant role in history, if it is going to insult people for his name to be in a video game for christ's sakes, he should not be mentioned in such a context. He should not be an option for "Play one of the world's great leaders."

The fact is, the majority of the russian people are not complaining about Stalin, and the fact that he was in power. If they are, I certainly haven't heard about it. He was a powerful figure, and a russian pride. He defeated Hitler, and people appreciate him for that.

However, EVERYONE thinks he is one of the wickedest people to walk on the face of the earth. The Americans think so, the Russians think so, the Germans think so, almost every non neo-nazi hates him. HE was a figure for intolerance, evil, and hatred. At least Stalin had some greatness in him.

You don't like it? Mod him in. Go ahead, have fun kicking Hitler's ass over and over again. If it really bugs you that much, screw up your copy of the game to the extent that it pleases you. I promise you that I am not going to help you in that project.

Finnally, I do not know why you thought that my sole argument was that the Germans didn't want him in. And what's wrong with that? The fact is, they don't. They never will. Why ask "what if?" It doesn't apply to every situation, you should know that.

[Will9]

For those of you who want Hitler use this mod and leave us alone.

[One_more_turn]

Hitler lost. Stalin and Mao won, that's the difference.