Stalin in Civ?

[Dis]

Originally posted by Nikolai
Who's Bill & Ted?

It's a movie from the late 80's. I loved that movie.

[Nugog]

Originally posted by Nikolai
Who's Bill & Ted?

Damn - now I feel really old

[Dis]

me too. The scary thing is looking at their clothes. Fashion trends of past decades always seem so weird.



But that's getting a bit off topic. How exactly did we go from Stalin to Bill and Ted anyways?

I'll try to get back on topic. Not that I have much more to say. Hitler=Bad. Stalin=Good.

[Nugog]

Hmmm

Not too sure many russians would agree

[Nugog]

But Stalingrad is worthy of Stalins entry IMO

[Tattila the Hun]

Stalin=Bad. Ask any finn.

[Blaupanzer]

Stalin is not too popular in Poland. Of course, neither is Hitler. Don't suppose Alexander was too popular in Persia either. But none of the people who remember Alexander are still alive.

[Dis]

that's why I used a winky smilie.

But I think even most uneducated americans know Stalin did some bad ****. I don't think our education system is that bad. Ahh who am I kidding, it is. They probably don't even know who Stalin is.

[Nugog]

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun
Stalin=Bad. Ask any finn.

Do not get me wrong - I'm not saying I think he was a great guy, or that I think he should have a Nobel peace prize!

But, in his own ruthless way, he was effective, and relatively (in civ terms, not real life) successful.

[Xin Yu]

I think the criteria should be who changed the civilization -- to a dramatic extent, with no turning back. There is one catch: change takes time, and there maybe multiple leaders during that period.

Lenin and Stalin were both leaders during the biggest Russian 'change' in history. Lenin was the founder, Stalin expended the empire. I think both are eligible.

Sun Yat-sen and Mao (and to a lesser extent, Chiang in the middle) led Chinese from a rotten dynasty to a new world power. Sun's rule was short, Chiang was defeated by Mao so Mao should take the credit.

Hitler -- did he change the German civilization? No he didn't since the effect did not last. That said, he tried to change the country and make the change an everlasting one. He just failed.

[Tattila the Hun]

Jeesh, the modern world is filled with Hitler's legacy. I doubt there would be a State of Israel, for one. Germans haven't been in war for 60 plus years, so he was a great pacifier. And they still drive on his autobahns...

And Volkswagen!

Hitler might have failed to chance his country to his direction, but chance it he did. The backlash from taking the german militarism to it's peak has done more to chance the nation, than many leaders before him.

[Xin Yu]

Originally posted by Tattila the Hun
Hitler might have failed to chance his country to his direction, but chance it he did.

Well, that means if there is an opposite category to civ4 leader, he'll be qualified. Hmmm... that is an interesting idea. How about give each civilization an 'anti-leader' to make it more challenging?

[Zoid]

Ok, here´s the deal. (For those of you who doesn´t already know it). Sorry for the following rant of RL realpolitik.

Hitler is bad because he threatened the superiority of the ruling powers (i.e Great Britain and the USA) and since this hasn´t really changed in the last 50 years - he´s still bad. And Hitler killed a lot of jews. This is a lot worse than what either Stalin or Mao did. They only killed their own kind. Not to mention that Stalin was a valued ally against the nazis. Mao was a bastard, but at least he was a backwards bastard who only killed his own kind and he was a great general and had the wests admiration.

And in the last 15 or so years both Stalin and Mao has become icons of the western and eastern culture. I saw a guy just the other day in a T-shirt with Mao on. Now, I ask you how many T-shirts with Hitler have you seen recently?

The bottom line is that is has nothing to do with how bad a man you were or how many you killed while you were dictator. It has only to do with how you are percieved by the capitalist culture.

[redazncommieDXP]

I know you guys deserve a longer post than this, so I'll add more to it later if the need arises.

Stalin did tremendous good for Russia, despite the many that were killed. Stalin was the leader who single-handedly turned Russia from a third-rate backwater country into a military and industrial power the equal of any in the world. Because of Stalin, Russia was able to compete with the already-established United States in the global level for fifty years. Stalin industrialized and modernized Russia, yes at a steep human cost, but the fact remains that he did it. Not only did he save the world from Hitler, he went far beyond what dozens of leaders before him were able to do- he turned a historically weak and sickly country into a superpower that straddled the earth.

And as for Mao, he did tremendous good for China. Whatever you want to say about the Great Leap Forward or the Cultural Revolution, you must say that knowing that without Mao, there would be no sovereign Chinese state. Without Mao, China would still be a puppet to the western powers. There's a reason Mao has a nearly god-like status to the Chinese people.

[JackRudd]

The Civ4 designers didn't consciously include Stalin in Civ4. In Soviet Russia, Stalin Includes YOU!