Economic Victory

[Prussia]

Haven't you studied the pre-cold war era?

After Sputnik I, every nation on the planet was terrified of the strategic advantages Soviets would now possess if they were the only ones to succesfully launch inter-continental ballistic missles and spy sattelites, as well as colonizing other planets. The possibilities for the Soviet Union was endless.

There was a massive frenzy by the United States government to raise the next generation in the fields of science and math in order to develop a space program of their own.

The point is, hypothetically after someone launches a space rocket, it essentially is the end of time for the rest of the civilizations. If you look at the rocket you are launching, it is a high-tech machine. Look at what launching a crappy sattelite did to the world. Imagine if one civ was the only one to succesfully launch a full fledged rocket.

[Mattimus20]

Yes, you are correct. The Space Race was a direct result of the Cold War and it's Arms Race. I wasn't referring to the Cold War as a whole...That is a huge chunk of history. I understand the history of it. I know it dates back close to when WWII ended. I was referring to when I felt the Cold War really became a global concern (Or atleast for the U.S.) in the early 1960's (1962 to be exact) with the Cuban Missile Crisis and how the Space Race actually began in the late 1950's when Russia launched Sputnik I, II and their ICBM (1957 or 1958, not sure).

I felt that Rocketry was developed for the Space race and eventually used for Weaponry. I suppose I let my opinions on this particular matter supersede actual facts.

The educational institutions that I attended are fine. But thinks for your concern. Maybe I'm just young.

This is all besides the point.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Mattimus20
This is all besides the point.

Welcome to Apolyton

[Blaupanzer]

Staying on point is not one of our virtues.

[dregor]

Originally posted by Blaupanzer
Staying on point is not one of our virtues.

I personally don't see a problem with this

Threads are conversations, and conversations are organic things. This isn't debate class. Let a conversation flow!

[Prussia]

Mattimus, I was not questioning "The educational institutions you attended." I was asking you if you had studied the Cold War. I didn't know, since, as you put it, maybe you're just young.

The point I am making is that it essentially is a victory to be the first out to space, as you literally will go down as history as the first.

The russians sort of won the space-race, but if you think about it, not as much as one would in the scenario presented by Civ IV.

[Brael]

If you use civ's requirements for the space race, russia didn't win it (actually no one has). Russia would have been at the point where they completed the Apollo program first or possibly obtained rocketry first since completing the Apollo program is something only one nation has done so far. Or to put it another way, Russia made it into space first but they didn't win the race to "own" it. You have to be in the lead for more than the first couple laps of a race to come out as the winner.

[Will9]

Originally posted by sparkyal
Russia sucks? Hmm, couple of quick things about Russia and the space race and advancements. Like it or not, russia has the most reliable and most powerful rockets in the world, hands down, bar none. We tried for years to steal their designs. Second, in the 50-60's Russian fighters flew faster and were better designed then ours. Why? The reason is simple, our engineers would approximate desgins by using Laplase transforms and the like, the Russians on the other hand cracnked out the calculus and made better designs. Once we corrected out mistake we designed better performing fighters. Lastly, I would present you with the SU-27-35 (really the same fighters but with some huge modifications). It i hands down the best performing 4th generation fighter in the world today. the only thing that we have that can touch it is the F-22, and thats a 5th genration fighter that is in really low production numbers (hence driving the cost up). Even the F-14/Phoenix missle combination would not fair well against an SU-33 armed with AA-9's (I thin that's the designation). the reason is simple, the Phoenix is relatively easily avioded..it flies at mach 5 at around 80,000 feet and then drops down. Lastly, lastly, as has already been started, the Russians began the space race. Lastly, lastly, lastly, Russian laser research is also top notch.

Ok, back to topic, economic visctory. Interesting, bu I wonder: Has someone been playing Axis and Allies?

sparky

Russia could have been the first on the moon, but Russian leaders insisted that it happen on the 50th anniversary of the October Revolution. The Russian scientists did not have enough time to make a ship that would take a man to the moon. So the mission failed.

[Prussia]

Russia is L33t.

[zeace]

The space race in Civ is not just the first guy to get a rocket to fly. In reality, the first country to get a permanent base set up on another planet will have a large advantage over everyone else. The first arrivers get to pick the best location to build their base, and if they were so inclined would be the best set up to destroy other bases.

I loved in the old civ games where you could push your luck and build a faster rocket with less chance of success and catch up to a civ that launched before you. Imagine the horror of spending years in space just to land and find someone else already there, turning you back.

If you don't think that the first person to a new planet would have an advantage, I'll play you in a game of civ where I get to see the map and pick anywhere I want for my first city. You have to pick a second best spot. Any takers?

[CarnalCanaan]

Originally posted by Blaupanzer


Mattimus20 has hit on a really solid idea related to the game. Why should the first nation to launch a spaceship to an inhabitable world elsewhere in the galaxy be regarded as winning the "greatest civilization" award. The side benefits of the actual space race of the 50s - 80s are real enough, but walking on the moon did not end history as we know it. Launching an intergalactic one-way transport won't end it either. His suggestion is worthy of rethinking the whole "victory question."

With due respect to Francis Fukuyama, I sincerely hope history never ends. Or at least that I have died a quiet, peaceful, comfortable - some might say "hippie-like" - death long before it ever arrives.

[JackRudd]

Originally posted by zeace
If you don't think that the first person to a new planet would have an advantage, I'll play you in a game of civ where I get to see the map and pick anywhere I want for my first city. You have to pick a second best spot. Any takers?

OK. Provided I get to see which Leader you've picked:

If he's got Hunting, I'll pick Huayna Capac. I'll start 3 squares away from your city and march my Quechua into your undefended capital.

If he hasn't got Hunting, I'll pick someone who has. I'll play on the same continent as you and hoover up all the goody huts.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by CarnalCanaan
With due respect to Francis Fukuyama

Fukuyama

Originally posted by CarnalCanaan
some might say "hippie-like"

Now who would ever say a thing like that?

[Blaupanzer]

Originally posted by Prussia
Russia is L33t.

I'll bite. What does this mean?

[Prussia]

Heh, the language that 13 year olds who still drink chocolate milk use. Supposed to mean, "awesome." Leet, is german, or some other eastern european language, but those no-lifes made 3's look like e's. (?)

Anyways, I've been spending too much time in Gamespy lobbies.