Economic Victory

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Jaybe
No, you shouldn't do THAT!! To be pure, you have to limit YOURSELF to particular victory conditions

QFT!

It's like taking a vow of celibacy - it's much less noble if you're so ugly that noone would sleep with you in the first place.

[Mattimus20]

Bah to the Space Race

I think the Space Race Victory is a Joke. In the game, if I lose, it's because of that damn space race, no matter my score at the time.... I still lose because of it.

Personally, I feel that historically the space race is arbitrary. Look at the U.S. for example. We were the first ones in space, followed by Russia, and what did the U.S. get out of it? A 300-Billion dollar a year (guess) budget for NASA and I don't think Russia has made ANY technological advances in the past 30 years. Besides, Americans are still cavemen compared to the technological juggernauts known as the Japanese.

It seems like the Space Race Victory is the ultimate Scientific Victory in the game, but how many technological advances have been found in the past 30 years AFTER space travel was discovered? I'd like to see the Space Race only add to a civs research but with a price. Say, the more you put in your space ship, the more it costs to run, but the more research you get out of it. Then have 20-25 new technologies AFTER you are able to build a space ship.

[LordShiva]

Re: Bah to the Space Race

Originally posted by Mattimus20
I think the Space Race Victory is a Joke. In the game, if I lose, it's because of that damn space race, no matter my score at the time.... I still lose because of it.

Personally, I feel that historically the space race is arbitrary. Look at the U.S. for example. We were the first ones in space, followed by Russia

While I agree with your utter disdain for the space race, I must correct you in your claim that the U.S. was the first in space, given that the Soviets were there first.

[Prussia]

Soviets launched their sattelite first.

I guess you wouldn't remember Sputnik I, but that began the REAL space race.

[dregor]

Re: Bah to the Space Race

Originally posted by Mattimus20
I think the Space Race Victory is a Joke. In the game, if I lose, it's because of that damn space race, no matter my score at the time.... I still lose because of it.

Personally, I feel that historically the space race is arbitrary. Look at the U.S. for example. We were the first ones in space, followed by Russia, and what did the U.S. get out of it? A 300-Billion dollar a year (guess) budget for NASA and I don't think Russia has made ANY technological advances in the past 30 years. Besides, Americans are still cavemen compared to the technological juggernauts known as the Japanese.

It seems like the Space Race Victory is the ultimate Scientific Victory in the game, but how many technological advances have been found in the past 30 years AFTER space travel was discovered? I'd like to see the Space Race only add to a civs research but with a price. Say, the more you put in your space ship, the more it costs to run, but the more research you get out of it. Then have 20-25 new technologies AFTER you are able to build a space ship.

I feel like I've just been sucker punched with a big old sack of wrongness.

[Mattimus20]

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.... of course... Sputnick. Sorry. Russia sucks regardless.

I can tell that no one agrees with me on the space race issue. So, I will digress.

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Mattimus20
Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.... of course... Sputnick. Sorry. Russia sucks regardless.

I can tell that no one agrees with me on the space race issue. So, I will digress.

I think you mean "egress".

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Mattimus20
I can tell that no one agrees with me on the space race issue.

Originally posted by LordShiva
While I agree with your utter disdain for the space race

[Brael]

Re: Bah to the Space Race

Originally posted by Mattimus20
I think the Space Race Victory is a Joke. In the game, if I lose, it's because of that damn space race, no matter my score at the time.... I still lose because of it.

Personally, I feel that historically the space race is arbitrary. Look at the U.S. for example. We were the first ones in space, followed by Russia, and what did the U.S. get out of it? A 300-Billion dollar a year (guess) budget for NASA and I don't think Russia has made ANY technological advances in the past 30 years. Besides, Americans are still cavemen compared to the technological juggernauts known as the Japanese.

It seems like the Space Race Victory is the ultimate Scientific Victory in the game, but how many technological advances have been found in the past 30 years AFTER space travel was discovered? I'd like to see the Space Race only add to a civs research but with a price. Say, the more you put in your space ship, the more it costs to run, but the more research you get out of it. Then have 20-25 new technologies AFTER you are able to build a space ship.

Russia was the first into space with Sputnik, they also had the first person in space, after that the US ended up overtaking them with the first person to orbit Earth, then the Apollo missions eventually reaching the moon and returning a couple times. As far as whats come out of the space program, well... theres too many to list but just typing this message for you to read is using some of them.

[sparkyal]

Russia sucks? Hmm, couple of quick things about Russia and the space race and advancements. Like it or not, russia has the most reliable and most powerful rockets in the world, hands down, bar none. We tried for years to steal their designs. Second, in the 50-60's Russian fighters flew faster and were better designed then ours. Why? The reason is simple, our engineers would approximate desgins by using Laplase transforms and the like, the Russians on the other hand cracnked out the calculus and made better designs. Once we corrected out mistake we designed better performing fighters. Lastly, I would present you with the SU-27-35 (really the same fighters but with some huge modifications). It i hands down the best performing 4th generation fighter in the world today. the only thing that we have that can touch it is the F-22, and thats a 5th genration fighter that is in really low production numbers (hence driving the cost up). Even the F-14/Phoenix missle combination would not fair well against an SU-33 armed with AA-9's (I thin that's the designation). the reason is simple, the Phoenix is relatively easily avioded..it flies at mach 5 at around 80,000 feet and then drops down. Lastly, lastly, as has already been started, the Russians began the space race. Lastly, lastly, lastly, Russian laser research is also top notch.

Ok, back to topic, economic visctory. Interesting, bu I wonder: Has someone been playing Axis and Allies?

sparky

[dregor]

Originally posted by sparkyal

Ok, back to topic, economic visctory. Interesting, bu I wonder: Has someone been playing Axis and Allies?

Never played it before, no.

[sparkyal]

Wow, never played Axis and Allies???? It is probably one of the best strategy board games around. Anyway, in the game, as the Axis you can win by economic victory...but shiva would probaby say that's for hippies.
sparky

[Prussia]

Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man


I think you mean "egress".

Aw, give him a break!

[Mattimus20]

First of all, I meant digress... not egress. My intention was to end the conversation on that particular topic, however did not provide any options for a new topic. My apologies

Next, nobody agreed with me on the Space Race issue. Although one person said they agreed with my utter disdain for the Space Race...... That wasn't the point.

I asked for some feedback on the Space Race (in CIV 4 and it's association with the real space race)... and all I got was a handful of witty comments on the history of the space race. I didn't realize it was such a touchy subject to many of you. For those of you with a vast knowledge on the subject, I'm sure you studied diligently in your high school Science class to have the ability to regurgitate such important information.

I apologize for getting my facts confused, but appreciate you all teaching me a lesson in basic moments of world history and the history of modern weapons development. Thank you.

However, still, with the information that many of you so kindly provided, it doesn't change the fact that the overall bearing that the space race had on a countries economic and scienctific output (once there was a space race victor) was arbitrary. Not until more and more technology was discovered did anything real come from the space race. Although Russia won the space race and the U.S. had the first man on the moon, what did this effect? Nothing. There was no real winner because later Russia and the U.S. entered the pointless Cold War to further drag on this race for supremacy... and for what?

The Space Race should be a world wonder in CIV 4 to aid in Scientific and Economic output, not a victory condition.

[Blaupanzer]

Originally posted by Mattimus20

I apologize for getting my facts confused, but appreciate you all teaching me a lesson in basic moments of world history and the history of modern weapons development. Thank you.

However, still, with the information that many of you so kindly provided, it doesn't change the fact that the overall bearing that the space race had on a countries economic and scienctific output (once there was a space race victor) was arbitrary. Not until more and more technology was discovered did anything real come from the space race. Although Russia won the space race and the U.S. had the first man on the moon, what did this effect? Nothing. ...

The Space Race should be a world wonder in CIV 4 to aid in Scientific and Economic output, not a victory condition.

Mattimus20 has hit on a really solid idea related to the game. Why should the first nation to launch a spaceship to an inhabitable world elsewhere in the galaxy be regarded as winning the "greatest civilization" award. The side benefits of the actual space race of the 50s - 80s are real enough, but walking on the moon did not end history as we know it. Launching an intergalactic one-way transport won't end it either. His suggestion is worthy of rethinking the whole "victory question."

The other thing Mattimus20's posts have revealed is the poor state of scientific and technological history education in the educational institutions he attended -- possibly in the nation as a whole. For example the cold war began before the space race, and the space race was actually a subset of the cold war. Two, all Russian technology is not backward. Almost all space launchers these days use Russian engines. Three, the Japanese have hardly buried the US in the field of technological advancements. They have exploited some breakthroughs better than the US developers, an engineering feat, but even that is not across the board. The list of misconceptions could go on, but I was surprised at their depth given the apparent intelligence of the poster himself.