Pacifism/Philosopical Questions

[OutsiderSubtype]

All the discussion about how to best use specialists has got me thinking about how I use them in my games.

In general, I like to have only one "GP factory" city. Why? Because I can sometimes have it generating GP so fast that other cities can't keep up due to the ever-increasing GP costs. Essentially, then, the GPPs that those other cities are generating are wasted because they won't ever become an actual GP.

I think this situation could be avoided if I did a bit more micromanaging of my cities. Thus, I have two questions.

1) Are Philosophical and Pacifism worth it if only one city will be devoted to the production of great people? Sure, doubling points is impressive, but the benefits are only being felt in one city rather than empire-wide.

2) How does one micromanage great person production to avoid one city generating all the GP? Is it as simple as adding and removing specialists?

[rah]

Yes, in combination with the wonders already there that you can't turn on and off.

YOu have to do the math.
City one is producing 10 gps.
city two is producing 4gps.
At 100 a gp kicks out. City one is now reset to 0 while city two has 40. To get to 200 city two needs 160/4 or 40 turns. City one needs only 20 turns. If you don't reduce one or add to one it's going to be a long time before the difference to the next level can be made up by the second city before the first city can crank another one.

[Velociryx]

I would say that the answer lies somewhere between the two extremes.

If you're using specialists to maximize your G-Man production, then a single city approach is probably no more optimal than a wide dispersion approach (and for the very reasons you mention).

Specifically, I think the "sweet spot" is probably in two or three cities, and for this reason.

Odds are excellent that you're not going to be able to build whatever wonders you plan to build in just one city.

Some of those other cities will, almost invariably wind up being wonder-heavy, and these will generate a fair number of G-Man points in their own right.

Those points are wasted, however, if you cram all your specialists into a single city.

I would therefore say that it may be more efficient at some point to turn those specialists off and let them work cottages for a time, creating a new bevy of specialists in your other good G-Man point cities to allow them to "pop" and then, once they do, revert back to your "main producer" for the next.

In this way, you wind up using a greater proportion of the TOTAL G-Man points produced.

I'd also say that, yes, Pacifism and Philosophical are QUITE useful, even with the strictly single city approach, as the goal is to get faster (not necessarily more, but that's a bonus too) G-Men...however you can arrange that, faster is always better.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Rah nicely summarized the point I was trying to make.

That's it precisely.

-=Vel=-

[OutsiderSubtype]

Okay, sounds good.

I think where I run into trouble is that I assign specialists in a city or two because I want more and faster G-Men. I then think, "I've got these specialists - maybe I should run Representation and build the Sistine Chapel!" I end up with a "in for a penny, in for a pound" specialist economy in my core cities, and I sort of suspect that I need to consider the opportunity costs of some of that stuff more carefully.

For example, if I'm only doing specialists for the GPPs, maybe I shouldn't run Representation and should rely on a traditional cottage economy for research. I won't be maximizing the benefit of the specialists, but I won't be making civic decisions on the basis of one city either.

[Velociryx]

Well, if you're using specialists, then by all means, get as much out of them as you possibly can, but yes, largely it depends on your goals.

I mean, if you're not gonna get more marginal benefit out of some other civic, then running representation to bolster your specialists is very definitely a good play, and the more specialists you have, the more compelling its use.

Likewise (and I know I'm in the minority opinion here, but bear with me), if you have a large empire, Mercantalism can be insanely strong...that free specialist in every city is nothing to sneeze at. Yes, FM's extra trade route CAN net you more profits, but in practice, this isn't all that easy to set up, and requires that you be on good relations with other civs to trade with....if relations are frosty, and you're growing by means of conquests anyways, then you may as well run it, since you'll have few international trading partners, and it, coupled with Representation can bring in a nice haul indeed!).

-=Vel=-

[indeliblemerson]

Nice discussion as this helps me pick up ideas and strategies.

However, I'm fairly new at Civ so I am asking, based on the commentators’ level of play, rudimentary questions. I don't mind showing my ignorance as long as somebody will humor me with an answer.

I am not sure how you micromanage this GP pump. Are you adding artist with the plus and minus button (far right of city screen) or are you just selecting “emphasizing great person" (lower center of city screen)?

I am usually emphasizing something as a counter measure once there is trouble. Like I might starve so I emphasize food, or I need to manufacture something in particular so I emphasize hammers.

The effects of these subtleties are not readily apparent, to me. It might be helpful if you describe what steps lead you to a GP pump, city or cities.

[zeace]

I find that my GP cities tend to suck at production, and really aren't very effective at building wonders. I usually have a city or two working specialists with a small number of wonders, and another city or two with great production that builds lots of wonders. If you can keep the GPP/turn similar on all these cities, then they all produce GPs.

Another under-mentioned advantage of a specialist economy, is that it goes well with slavery before you get the buildings necessary for specialists. Your workers first actions will all be related to increasing food, so you'll grow much faster than if you build cottages/mines, and therefore you can whip in your basic infrastrcture a lot faster.

[Dominae]

Originally posted by indeliblemerson
I am not sure how you micromanage this GP pump. Are you adding artist with the plus and minus button (far right of city screen) or are you just selecting “emphasizing great person" (lower center of city screen)?

Generally speaking, you should not using the city governor (i.e. the emphasize buttons) if you want to micromanage something. Use the +/- buttons instead. Also, periodically mouse-over the GPP progress bar under the specialist icons This will give you a greater feel for how the system works and what it can do for you.

[Brael]

I've never played a game that emphasized great people (actually, I always play marathon games since that option was added and I don't think I've ever had over 5 great people over an entire game from 4000 BC to 2050 AD). I'm thinking of trying a game next time however that goes for a specialist based economy (I'm thinking my general civics would be Rep, Nationhood, Caste, Merc, Pac) just because it's such a different playstyle from what I usually do. My main concern in this sort of game is that since production would be poor, would relying on an insane number of great prophets be viable? The prophets would provide me with 1 hammer/turn (I think) as settlers, but more importantly I would be getting 1/2 hammers per priest specialist. Would this be a viable strategy or would the chase for hammers essentially cancel out the whole benefit to the specialist game as I would be drastically limiting my Engineers (though CS doesn't give unlimited of those), Artists, Scientists, and Merchants?

[T-hawk]

Originally posted by Velociryx
In this way, you wind up using a greater proportion of the TOTAL G-Man points produced.

But the flip side is that you end up _producing_ fewer points. You're passing up _two_ GPPs in the National Epic city for every one you want to exploit from a side city.

[Velociryx]

T-Hawk, what you say is true...to a point.

My question is...what good is a G-Man point produced if it does not yield a G-Man?

If you can produce fewer G-Man points, and yield a greater number of G-Men (by slectively focusing on where the points are already stored, rather than starting from "ground zero" and having to spend those points racing ahead of where the other city already is, your overall G-Man *production* is gonna be higher than it would be if you exclusively on your "most efficient" GP point producer. In this particular instance, the focus on raw efficiency can lead to lesser results because of the shape of the production function itself.

-=Vel=-

[Blake]

A strangely logical argument against merchantalism for the large, relatively alienated empire is foriegn trade routes - when you have a large empire your trade routes could be worth upwards of 100-150gpt to your few allies - thus making them more useful tech trade partners.

On the topic of Pacifism it's one of the most useful religious civics which doesn't require the state religion to be spread around - you only need the religion in the 2-3 cities generating your GPP. This can work great if you also benefit from the no upkeep (due to a very small military) and don't need the state religion happiness. It can be good for spiritual if you religion-flip for diplomacy purposes - just have all the religions in your 2-3 gpp cities and other cities can have whatever religion spreads naturally.
In comparison, org.rel and theology basically need to be spread everywhere if you're going to reap the full benefits.

[trev]

Pacifism is the least used civic in my book, but then I rarely cary a state religion either, I like the culture benefits of no state religion, a newly cultured city will generate culture without building regardless of its religion that way.

[fed1943]

Vel: above all, nice to see you are again able to really post.

About the usefullness of Philo: I tried with little sucess to evaluate how good Philo is against Finantial and Org (no idea how even to start v.any other trait); but, I could never to factor the turn advantage part,so... ( a nice example perhaps the now running SPDG; the leader is not Philo, but Finantial, and there is a real huge GP farm. Do you care to take a look?).

And about the spread of GPP: it looks the best cities to build Wonders
are not the best to support specialists; more,the good specialists
cities have high population, so happy and health buildings, even less
Wonders. So, I cannot see great help from Wonders to produtive GP
builders. That leads to... I was never able to get more than 3 cities
as acceptable GP producers.

Best regards,