America?

[timstam001]

Will9;

Let me first clarify that my post was meant as sarcasm to all the bickering about the USA topic. I'm sure most people will understand that :P

Now for your questions;

The European Union is indeed a co-operation of 25 independant nations. However, the EU has a government, which is based in Brussels. It's like any national government, but covering the entire EU.

European law overrules national law in ALL cases. If any European state should decide to ignore European law, huge fines that could reach hundreds of millions of euros could be imposed on that state. Simply said, we can NOT refuse what the EU tells us to do. We have to answer to the federal government.

The EU is not nearly like the UN, it really is a government that imposes laws and taxes on it's member states/citizens. In the national taxes an amount of EU tax is included. This varies with the wealth level of the memberstates (wealthier memberstates pay more). These taxes are split from national taxes and then end up in Brussels, so to say.

We also have a European army. Even though the memberstates can independantly control their troops, if Brussels decides different, then so be it. Also if, for example France for some reason would get it's ass kicked by any random country, the EU would send troops from all over the federation to the target location. Again, EU commands overrule national commands. Right now for example all European nations have been ordered by Brussels to increase their defense budget by a certain percentage in order to increase the size of the European army. As they said, they want it to match the American army, which is much larger at his time.

A correction to what you said:

-We can NOT refuse to do what the EU says. EU law is ultimate
-The EU DOES tax it's citizens
-The European Union DOES have a European Army

To add, we also have a communal economy, and currency. Even the states that have not yet adopted the Euro will have to do so by 2017 or something. I know they have a date like that planned.

The EU is also so much more than "just an organisation". The EU goes much deeper than that. It's a commitment of 25 countries that have decided to work together on all levels of economy, politics and military. We share the same values and theres a very strong sense of brotherhood amongst our fellow Europeans. Even though Germany and Holland really hate eachother during the European Football Championships, they love eachother before and after :P you get the idea.
I am sure the EU will become much more like one nation as time passes, for as far as it isn't already.

But still, it would of course be rediculous to have it as a civ :P . They could maybe introduce unions as a diplomatic option, but that would be a whole different story

[Will9]

Ok you are still comparing the EU to the US. If a US state doesn't like something passed by the US gov the only way to get out of it is war, but you can just break away.

The EU has no army, but it does have the armies of it's members. Each nation In the EU can invade send their troops wherever they want as long as they are not invade another nation of the EU.

[Bkeela]

America along with all Americans suck. Clearly it shouldn't be in Civ.

[Smellycowsquid]

Now- Why would you say that?

[Six Thousand Year Old Man]

Originally posted by Will9
Ok you are still comparing the EU to the US. If a US state doesn't like something passed by the US gov the only way to get out of it is war, but you can just break away.

The EU has no army, but it does have the armies of it's members. Each nation In the EU can invade send their troops wherever they want as long as they are not invade another nation of the EU.

Also, the EU can't be a country because it doesn't have reading comprehension issues

[padillah]

Originally posted by timstam001
... SNIP ...
I think it should be, just as much as the Netherlands and Portugal should be. But hey, I see a difference there. Who kows Portugal or the Netherlands? Who knows the United States of America? I doubt if Sid Meier even knows the exact location or history of these two European nations.
...

Let me get this straight. You actually believe that a man that has spent the last ~30 years of his life making one of the most comprehensive historical strategy games in the world doesn't know where Portugal is?

Are you serious? Are you high?

Again, we could ask ourselves, who knows the European Union? Both the Netherlands and Portugal are a part of it. I think everyone knows exactly where it is.

Until you mentioned in your other post that it's based in Brussels - no, I didn't. I've heard it reffered to, heck I've been in it (Ireland, Scotland, and England). But know where it's based? No.

If you really compare the EU to the USA, what's the real difference?

Ratification of a single Constitution. Acceptance of a single, federated, government. Aquiecense of soverignty. Do you need more?

If you go deep enough of course you'll find plenty of differences, but you get the idea.

You don't need to go "deep enough" at all. The US is a collection of states who have accepted a single governing body. The EU is a collection of countries that have treaties with one another. In short, the EU doesn't have the power to decalre something illegal it only has the power to make it's members decalre something illegal.

They're both Federal governments instituted by the states inside it.

Nope. The US has a governing body. The EU has a parliment which can be best described as a forcful advisory body. Though the sovernty transfered through treaties can be rather extreme in some instances.

Heck most of the union doesn't even use the Euro and the European Constitution is comming under huge fire from France and the Netherlands. Membership has to be renewed, the UK almost dropped out in 2005.

There is no Membership in the US. You're a state or you secede.

No, the EU and the US are two very different organizations.

Tom P.

[padillah]

Originally posted by timstam001
-We can NOT refuse to do what the EU says. EU law is ultimate
-The EU DOES tax it's citizens
-The European Union DOES have a European Army

To add, we also have a communal economy, and currency. Even the states that have not yet adopted the Euro will have to do so by 2017 or something. I know they have a date like that planned.

Wait. If the EU can not be refused why are there "states" that have not aquiesed to it's declarations? If the countries have so much of a say, how can the EU Commision (or Parliment) be so all powerful?

Answer: The EU can't make laws. It can only force it's member countries to make them. Fine distinction but the very heart of your "same as the US" argument.

The EU is also so much more than "just an organisation". The EU goes much deeper than that. It's a commitment of 25 countries that have decided to work together on all levels of economy, politics and military. We share the same values and theres a very strong sense of brotherhood amongst our fellow Europeans.

Well, don't tell England and Ireland. They've been at war for over 100 years and we don't want to spoil it for them.

Even though Germany and Holland really hate eachother during the European Football Championships, they love eachother before and after :P you get the idea.
I am sure the EU will become much more like one nation as time passes, for as far as it isn't already.

It's iffy. I've been a little busy so I'm not sure where the constitution stands any more and, oddly enough, it's hard to find an objective site on the EU. Hmm.

Tom P.

[Common Sensei]

Something like the European Union would be a diplomatic option than an actual civ. Something to fill the gap between a Defensive Pact and a Permanent Alliance. Perhaps it would give all members of such a union an extra trade route in each city, or something to that effect.

[timstam001]

Padillah:

Didn't I mention that my first post was pure sarcasm? It makes your point about Sid Meier totally irrelevent. Again, I was being sarcastic when I said he didn't know where Holland or Portugal are. Duh!

The EU can actually make laws. The only thing that is different, is that the bigger laws, the laws with more impact, need to be ratified by the memberstates. They need a majority of countries to adopt a new law. This means that even if some states would decline a new law, if more countries have voted in favor, these other countries are forced to adopt this new law.

For example the European Constitution that was forwared last year was declined by the Netherlands and France. Now France is a very powerful country, and when the Netherlands joined their opinion on the Constitution, all other countries didn't even bother to have a vote. This meant that there is no European Constitution yet. It's in fact being worked on again, as we still want it. Indeed, this is the largest step that keeps the EU away from being an actual country.

A collection of countries that have treaties with eachother??? That's almost an insult. The EU is so much more than that.

The European Union is governed by a federal government, instituted and accepted by it's memberstates. The European government can in fact be defined as a federal government. Yes it's federal alright.

Also, it's not just treaties anymore. It's a collection of countries unified under one name with common goals. It's an actual union. We are one. Even though we have a great deal of autonomy, on many many areas we share the same laws and values, for example when it comes to economy. Economically almost everything is the same in every memberstate. Militarily our nations have been unified. All of our armies combined actually are the European army. Even though it may sound double, our national armies together are the European army. However, it's not entirely the same as in the US indeed. But that would get down to small details.

To the outside world we actually do function as one. For example it doesn't matter if you import goods in Holland or in Spain, you pay the same taxes and fees, and are subject to the same rules and laws. Now, about what you said that any European country can invade another nation at will.... I can assure you if for example Italy decided to add Switzerland to their territory, Italy will get it's ass whooped by the EU. This ofcourse as Switzerland is under European protection, and vice versa. In short, if an EU memberstate wants to undertake military action, this can only be done with EU permission. Otherwise this country would risk getting kicked out of the EU, or even risk military conflict. However, we don't have any rogue states in the EU. Everything is dealth with properly, excluding the neccesity of such sanctions. Even Italy doesn't need these sanctions :P

The England vs. Ireland/IRA conflict has been solved. It's history.

Of course the EU and US are very different still. But as I said before, I was being very sarcastic in my first post, and came up with some "loose" comparisons. You get the idea.

[padillah]

Sorry about that. I was never taught "sarcasm".

Oh, and the "one country can attack another country" thying wasn't me. IT was Will9. I have enough problems keeping my own big mouth out of trouble.

I'm still looking for an objective site for learning about the EU. Even it's own site is old enough it doesn't list Switzerland as a member (which it is, from what you said).

And England/Ireland were fighting even after they had both joined the EU. But, if I remember correctly, it's in large part to the EU that the situation is resolved. So... good on ya.

Tom P.

[timstam001]

Switzerland is not a part of the EU. I said it's under protection of the EU.

And yes the EU site is indeed old enough. Things change so fast here that it's hard to really keep up. That's not so strange considering the EU as it is now is only a few years old, just after the Euro was adopted. The next step is the constitution, which is being worked on now.

[zeace]

The EU today looks a lot like the USA did when it was formed. The states were initially very protetective of their rights and individuality. The American constitution expressly prohibits the federal government from making laws for the states, except when they are related to military or inter state trade. Only through hundreds of years of being together have the states become more connected. The federal government now passes "laws" like the No Child Left Behind act, which isn't a law, but makes federal educational subsidies dependent on the states passing particular laws.

And if you go to a state like Texas, there's a lot of feeling of being in an independant state. They view the USA very similarily to how the Europeans see the EU. I think that with time the EU will start to act more and more like a single country, and the supra-federal government will take more and more power from the individual contries.

[Will9]

The EU is like America under the articles of confedartion. Except the EU claims to be many states. Each state has diplomatic independece. Last time I checked both England and Spain invaded Iraq. In a true nation all states send their army to the same place under the command of the fedral government, but Spain and England's amries were each under the command of their own gov. A fedral gov must hsve complete control of its troops.

[Ka Plewy]

Hence, the EU is a confederation.

[timstam001]

The fact that Brussels does have complete and ultimate control over the European troops, doesn't mean it has to be that way in all cases.

In this case, the troops were under control of their own nations maybe, but the nations are under control of Brussels. That is always the case with military acts.

And why would you send troops from more countries if only a few is enough? That wouldn't make sense. While spain and England were in Iraq, there were Dutch troops in Afghanistan, as well as other European nations. You see, every European country is contributing in a way, but it's up to Brussels to decide who goes where.