Firaxis to Include Nelson Mandela and Fidel Castro in Next XP?!

[Martinus]

Originally posted by LordShiva


Huayna Capac would beg to differ

So would Hatshepsut, Montezuma, and Mansa Musa.

So would Alexander.

[Martinus]

Anyway, going back to the original discussion (especially since the Hitler/Stalin/Mao debate has been already done to death a number of times), I don't particularly mind introducing not-so-succesful leaders, provided that they fulfill the following criteria:

1. They actually ruled the country (which rules out characters like Joan of Arc),

2. They are historically documented (which rules out King Arthur, Hyppolita and the like).

Other than that, I think the determination should be made at the civilization level, not at the leader level - Castro and Mandela, for example, do not deserve to be leaders not because they themselves were not important, but because the nations they represent do not deserve to be civilizations in the Civilization sense - they are both very young countries and such countries should be included only in exceptional circumstances, when they really have a claim to greatness so to speak (such as the USA).

As for including "failures" as leaders, I don't necessarily mind that, provided that they are recognisable and there are no better candidates - so while it may work for less prominent civs such as Zulus or Mali (which did not go on to become superpowers), it would be much more difficult to justify introducing some failure as a leader of Germany or France, as these countries have many more recognised and succesful leaders to choose from.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Martinus
1. They actually ruled the country (which rules out characters like Joan of Arc),

Rules out Gandhi, too...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by LordShiva


Rules out Gandhi, too...

Very true.

Even so, India's not short of great rulers, whether 'echt' Indian (that is, would pass the aneeshm respectability test ) or quasi-Indian, like the Kushans Vima Kadphises or Kanishka.


A southern Indian ruler like one of the Cholas might be nice for a change...


Kanishka's coinage

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by LordShiva


Rules out Gandhi, too...

Hannibal too. Just an extraordinary general. And Brennus never ruled "the Celts." He was just a chieftain of one of many Gallic tribes (I believe his were the Senones ).

[Vince278]

Any single ruler was a part of their civilization for only a very short time. Someone representative of the civilization still needed to be selected. For that reason, anyone would be a valid (and probably invalid) choice.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Alexander01


Hannibal too. Just an extraordinary general. And Brennus never ruled "the Celts." He was just a chieftain of one of many Gallic tribes (I believe his were the Senones ).

Yes, but it's called 'Civilization'.

Since nobody ever ruled ALL the Celts, they'd have to go with rulers of localized parts of the Celtic civilization.

So naturally, they'd go with the more well-known ones, such as Boudicca, Cartimandua, Brennus, Cogidubnus, Vercingetorix and so on.

[Vince278]

If you have Caesar you will need to have Vercingetorix too.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Vince278
If you have Caesar you will need to have Vercingetorix too.

Otherwise, how will Julius be able to go Alesia on a Sunday afternoon ?

[Will9]

Originally posted by molly bloom


Yes, but it's called 'Civilization'.

Since nobody ever ruled ALL the Celts, they'd have to go with rulers of localized parts of the Celtic civilization.

So naturally, they'd go with the more well-known ones, such as Boudicca, Cartimandua, Brennus, Cogidubnus, Vercingetorix and so on.

Boudica only ruled two tribes in eastern Britian for a few years. Vercingetix may get in.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by molly bloom


Yes, but it's called 'Civilization'.

Since nobody ever ruled ALL the Celts, they'd have to go with rulers of localized parts of the Celtic civilization.

So naturally, they'd go with the more well-known ones, such as Boudicca, Cartimandua, Brennus, Cogidubnus, Vercingetorix and so on.

I know. My point was that Civ leaders don't necessarily have to be some big emperor who ruled a vast empire, as is evidenced by the inclusion of Gandhi and Hannibal. As the most recognizable individuals from their respective countries, I see no problem with their inclusion.

I would've picked Vercingetorix or Boudicca over Brennus myself, but since nobody ever ruled all the Celts as you say, I suppose it doesn't really matter.

[acuoio]

I think the key is whether or not that "leader" and their country made a significant impact on the rest of the world at some given period in history. The leader may be a military leader (Hannibal/Washington), a spiritual leader (Ghandi), or an all-around great leader (Roosevelt, Churchill, etc). Although Hitler fills the bill, he is still today viewed in a negative light and there are people who are still very sensitive to him and what he did.

In my opinion, Firaxis should pick a leader or two per nation and move on to the next. Diversity is good.

[Son of David]

Personally I would like to see Lady Godiva as leader of the Brits.

I'd be in diplomatic conversation with her now and then during my game whenever I get the horn (of war sound).

[Prussia]

They just have to be GOOD leaders - Gandhi.

[gdijedi7]

I think some thought should go to the possible scenarios. For this reason, I would love to see Hitler, Tojo, Stalin, and Vercingtorix, though Boudica might not be too bad either.

And sometimes, I want to have a leader I hate (Hitler, Tojo, Stalin) on the map, just so I can kill them. Wouldn't it be great to nuke Hitler?