Baseline Questions for the 'sperts

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers


Very true. My first scientists always builds an academy. Thereafter, if your scientist gives you a key technology, go for it. But mostly, if you've got a decent science city, you'll get more from settling a scientist than the other uses.

RJM

Well, I guess the question is one of mathematics and about the game mechanics of the multiplier.

And your definition of 'decent science city'. Normally, I have more than one science city I consider 'decent'.

Since science cities are essentially commerce cities that have the science buildings, and since you really need 8 cities that have both libraries and universities in order to build Oxford, doesn't it stand to reason that you'll have more than one 'decent science city'?

Knowing that, isn't it likely to be more beneficial to build a second or even third academy in one of those other cities rather than settling those two in your one "main" 'decent science city'?

I guess it comes down to when do you get your second GS? I've been getting mine as my third GP. GS first, GP second, GS third.

Usually at that point, my capitol is making about 90ish beakers with a library and academy, and I have a second city that is pulling in about 60-70 that also has a library.

If I settle that GS in the capitol, it will give me 3 more beakers, plus 25% for the library, which results in .75 which is rounded down to zero.

If I settle I build an Academy in the second city, it gives me 50% more research which is approximately 30 more beakers, so now I have two cities running at about 90.

Now, I could be doing the maths horribly wrong, or I could be missing something.. but usually I get that second GS so early that it makes more sense to add it to the second city.. which then leaves me with a problem when I complete Oxford, because now I don't know which city I really want to build Oxford in. My capitol (which gets a Beauracry bonus) or my other city, which is usually my commerce/gold city because it's my religious city.

Like I said.. I don't have the answers, that's why I started this thread.. to ask the questions!

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Rancidlunchmeat


Well, I guess the question is one of mathematics and about the game mechanics of the multiplier.

And your definition of 'decent science city'. Normally, I have more than one science city I consider 'decent'.

Since science cities are essentially commerce cities that have the science buildings, and since you really need 8 cities that have both libraries and universities in order to build Oxford, doesn't it stand to reason that you'll have more than one 'decent science city'?

Knowing that, isn't it likely to be more beneficial to build a second or even third academy in one of those other cities rather than settling those two in your one "main" 'decent science city'?

I guess it comes down to when do you get your second GS? I've been getting mine as my third GP. GS first, GP second, GS third.

Usually at that point, my capitol is making about 90ish beakers with a library and academy, and I have a second city that is pulling in about 60-70 that also has a library.

If I settle that GS in the capitol, it will give me 3 more beakers, plus 25% for the library, which results in .75 which is rounded down to zero.

If I settle I build an Academy in the second city, it gives me 50% more research which is approximately 30 more beakers, so now I have two cities running at about 90.

Now, I could be doing the maths horribly wrong, or I could be missing something.. but usually I get that second GS so early that it makes more sense to add it to the second city.. which then leaves me with a problem when I complete Oxford, because now I don't know which city I really want to build Oxford in. My capitol (which gets a Beauracry bonus) or my other city, which is usually my commerce/gold city because it's my religious city.

Like I said.. I don't have the answers, that's why I started this thread.. to ask the questions!

I'm used to 6 cities with a university to build Oxford - does it vary with game settings?

Settling a Great Scientist gives you 6 beakers (plus a hammer which I shall discount). This rises to 9 under representation. Library + academy gives a bonus of 4 beakers (6 with representation). Total 10 (15). So if your second science city is generating more than 20 or 30 beakers before bonuses, a second Academy makes sense. For me, this would be quite unusual at the time of my second GS (which would be around AD 1, depending on all sorts of things).

Later in the game, my base commerce in other cities will rise, but so do the bonuses in my science city. With Oxford, Academy, library, university and observatory, my settled GS in my science city is worth 32 beakers per turn - allowing for Representation and free Religion. I need 64 beakers before bonuses in another city to justify an Academy. That would be unusual for me.

As far as Oxford is concerned, it's not a difficult choice for me. I want the Oxford bonus and the Bureaucracy bonus in the same city. So I choose the site for my first city in a place that will develop a good science potential. If I later find a much better site, I'd think about moving my capital.

So, yes, build a second Academy if you have a city with a high enough base commerce, but IMHO don't build Oxford anywhere but your capital.

RJM

PS I just noticed that in the save i was looking at to calculate the figures, I hadn't learned scientific method, so there's an extra 30% in there for monasteries. But even without the monasteries, I'd need 60 beakers before bonuses to justify an Academy in a second city.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers


I'm used to 6 cities with a university to build Oxford - does it vary with game settings?

Apparently, I just checked yesterday. I require 8 libs to build Oxford.

Must be a size of map thing, I presume. I'm using huge maps.

[padillah]

Guys, how many cities do you have?

I think it's not a numbers thing, I think it requires a lib in every city. 6cities, 6 libs. 8 cities, 8 libs.

Tom P.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Originally posted by padillah
Guys, how many cities do you have?

I think it's not a numbers thing, I think it requires a lib in every city. 6cities, 6 libs. 8 cities, 8 libs.

Tom P.

Pretty sure that's not the case.

First, I don't think the number of libraries matters at all (excepting the fact you need one before you can build a university).

But on a huge map/epic time (I don't think time matters), if you have 10 cities and 8 universities, you can build Oxford. It doesn't matter if you have libraries (or universities) in the other two cities or not.

It's definately not a requirement for every city, otherwise the description would read as such 'Oxford university requires a university in every city (and by extension, and library in every city)'

[padillah]

I've seen it go up when I founded a new city. Might it be 75% of your cities?

Hm, gotta look into this.

Anybody know definitvely?

Tom P.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Originally posted by padillah
I've seen it go up when I founded a new city. Might it be 75% of your cities?

I have never encountered such a thing.

This is seriously of interest though, definately, if anybody has some insight, it would be of vast importance!

[rjmatsleepers]

The consensus opinion in another thread where I posed this question was that the number of universities needed for Oxford was a function of map size and map size only. If anyone can post a save that suggests this is not the case, this would be very useful.

RJM

[Blaupanzer]

6 of whatever for standard map, 7 for large, 8 for huge. This applies to courthouses for Forbidden Palace, universities for Oxford, forges for Ironworks, and other such.

As to science, I build libraries in all my cities, usually adding universities and observatories as well. All of my cities are producing 40 or more science, with the older ones over 100, and a science city and the capitol at 300 plus after scientific method. This is based on spaceship as the logical goal, using war to tear down anyone who gets too far ahead of me in tech. This works on Noble some of the time.

Especially aggressive neighbors alter this path and may force me to change from spaceship to domination. If domination is the goal, the large empire eats too much gold to keep the science rate high enough to keep up with all of the AI in tech. At the higher levels, the neighbors get more and more aggressive, a point to keep in mind.

One note, if you "always win" on Noble, go up a level for the challenge. The game is more fun as a challenge IMO.

[Rancidlunchmeat]

Originally posted by Blaupanzer

One note, if you "always win" on Noble, go up a level for the challenge. The game is more fun as a challenge IMO.

Like I said.. I always win, but I'm often Dan Quayle (unless something special happened with a ridiculously good starting position, or ridiculously good early combat results), so I'm trying to improve my technique, take advantage of combined strategies and better understand where I'm 'losing ground' before I move up in difficulty.